Moving personal holdings gold/silver bullion over to SMSF?
- Thread starter kek
- Start date
unfunkable
Active Member
i asked the question , and apparently you can, as long as you sell at current market rate and keep clear records of everything.
i have bought gold with personal funds and plan to sell it to my smsf when it gets setup
i have bought gold with personal funds and plan to sell it to my smsf when it gets setup
In principle, I don't see why not, as long as it's arms length - i.e. market prices paid, valuation - and you stay below 5% threshold of in-house assets.
But something being possible does not mean it's a good idea. You should be very careful to stay compliant and the costs you'll incur to ensure that. Personally I don't think it's worth the trouble.
But something being possible does not mean it's a good idea. You should be very careful to stay compliant and the costs you'll incur to ensure that. Personally I don't think it's worth the trouble.
unfunkable
Active Member
hey just wondering, what do you mean by that?srebrni said:
thanks
unfunkable said:
This is much harder (or impossible) to do with numismatics as the "market rate" is too subjective.
unfunkable
Active Member
yep
easier to sell bars
easier to sell bars
I have some gold I want to move off into my SMSF, and use those funds to buy up some more silver in my personal holdings.
ATO definition of an 'in house asset'.
What is an in-house asset?
An in-house asset of a super fund is an asset that is:
* a loan to, or an investment in, a related party of the fund
* an investment in a related trust of the fund
* an asset of the fund that is subject to a lease or lease arrangement between the trustee of the fund (you), and a related party of the fund.
.
ATO definition of an 'in house asset'.
What is an in-house asset?
An in-house asset of a super fund is an asset that is:
* a loan to, or an investment in, a related party of the fund
* an investment in a related trust of the fund
* an asset of the fund that is subject to a lease or lease arrangement between the trustee of the fund (you), and a related party of the fund.
.
unfunkable
Active Member
as far as i can see
you are not loaning or leasing or lending
it will be a complete sale from one party to the next
do it at market rate on that day, print out pages of spot gold prices for future proof-auditing , and file this with the invoice.
clearly transfer money from super fund account to your personal account, print transaction pages, file it all...
you will need to personally declare capital gains or loss though, since gold is an asset and it is being traded.
dont see why you cant do the above....but then again I am not a superfund expert or a lawyer..please consult your own
you are not loaning or leasing or lending
it will be a complete sale from one party to the next
do it at market rate on that day, print out pages of spot gold prices for future proof-auditing , and file this with the invoice.
clearly transfer money from super fund account to your personal account, print transaction pages, file it all...
you will need to personally declare capital gains or loss though, since gold is an asset and it is being traded.
dont see why you cant do the above....but then again I am not a superfund expert or a lawyer..please consult your own
Superannuation Act can be found on the Net, have a read on relevant sections. Seems like SMSF trustees are prohibited from acquiring assets from members, except from listed securities and business real estate. Gold/silver are not explicitly listed as exception there AFAIK. So not sure how would outright sale be legit. DYODD.
Most importantly, as a trustee you must always ensure SMSF is used for sole purpose of providing for your retirement. Be very careful about this. You don't want the risk of ATO making you non-compliant. You pay punitive tax on *whole assets *of the fund *since inception*, not just for the period the fund was made non-compliant.
Best to talk to a professional if you are serious about this. You certainly should not act based on the Friday entertainment comments here, especially mine. I possess absolutely zero formal competence whatsoever in this arena
(I still think it is not good idea to mix assets in principle - private, company, SMSF - keep it separate. What you may gain by shifting short term you'd almost certainly lose in the end once you pay CGT, certified valuations and other compliance related costs any lost tax concessions.)
P.S. 5% in-house asset rule is not relevant here, sorry. Proves what an expert I am </entertainment_off>
Most importantly, as a trustee you must always ensure SMSF is used for sole purpose of providing for your retirement. Be very careful about this. You don't want the risk of ATO making you non-compliant. You pay punitive tax on *whole assets *of the fund *since inception*, not just for the period the fund was made non-compliant.
Best to talk to a professional if you are serious about this. You certainly should not act based on the Friday entertainment comments here, especially mine. I possess absolutely zero formal competence whatsoever in this arena
(I still think it is not good idea to mix assets in principle - private, company, SMSF - keep it separate. What you may gain by shifting short term you'd almost certainly lose in the end once you pay CGT, certified valuations and other compliance related costs any lost tax concessions.)
P.S. 5% in-house asset rule is not relevant here, sorry. Proves what an expert I am
</entertainment_off>unfunkable
Active Member
I have emailed the mob setting my Superfund up and have asked the question. Will report back with what they say.
I have used personal funds to purchase silver, which i plan to sell back to my Superfund when its up and running. I wanted to get in while still cheap. I have kept all receipts for the stuff i want to sell back, and they have serial numbers on them.
I have used personal funds to purchase silver, which i plan to sell back to my Superfund when its up and running. I wanted to get in while still cheap. I have kept all receipts for the stuff i want to sell back, and they have serial numbers on them.
Seriously be very careful about this no matter what that bunch says. If you are the trustee your ass is on the line, they couldn't care less after they sold you the trust deed. Read this very carefully:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/sia1993473/s66.html
After reading this myself I would just like to say that my initial comment in this thread is utterly idiotic. You can't sell your stuff to your SMSF unless its market value shares or business real estate, full stop. If you try to get around it and get caught you might end up in jail.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/sia1993473/s66.html
After reading this myself I would just like to say that my initial comment in this thread is utterly idiotic. You can't sell your stuff to your SMSF unless its market value shares or business real estate, full stop. If you try to get around it and get caught you might end up in jail.
unfunkable
Active Member
yeah I've done some more reading
other way around it may be to sell the gold back to a dealer, or a friend ( that isn't related) then get the SMSF to purchase it back...just document everything
you may lose a- bit when going through a proper dealer, but they may be understand if you explain your situation.
other way around it may be to sell the gold back to a dealer, or a friend ( that isn't related) then get the SMSF to purchase it back...just document everything
you may lose a- bit when going through a proper dealer, but they may be understand if you explain your situation.
unfunkable
Active Member
My question:
Is it OK for me to purchase some gold bullion (investment grade, 99.99 purity stamped bars) personally, and then sell it to my superfund once it is set up. It will be a clear cut transaction at market/spot value of the gold price on the day it is done. I will be able to provide invoices of the actual purchase of the bullion originally in my name, and can write out an invoice to the SMSF. Does the ATO allow this? - there will be no leasing or renting etc etc, just a normal sale thanks
Answer:
No. This is illegal. A SMSF cannot acquire an asset from a Fund Member unless specifically exempted (eg Listed Shares, Managed Funds and Commercial Property).
The Gold must be purchased by the SMSF directly from a non related entity.
edit:
rang up and spoke to the actual ppl managing the fund, they misunderstood me. They though it was a transfer of assets
if a clear cash transaction took place it is fine. problem is if its over 5k you need all the ID stuff etc etc i think.
if you could sell it to a dealer and purchase it back with CASH via your superfund it is FINE. So, if you know a dealer frriend willing to write you out invoices for the sale, it is FINE.
Is it OK for me to purchase some gold bullion (investment grade, 99.99 purity stamped bars) personally, and then sell it to my superfund once it is set up. It will be a clear cut transaction at market/spot value of the gold price on the day it is done. I will be able to provide invoices of the actual purchase of the bullion originally in my name, and can write out an invoice to the SMSF. Does the ATO allow this? - there will be no leasing or renting etc etc, just a normal sale thanks
Answer:
No. This is illegal. A SMSF cannot acquire an asset from a Fund Member unless specifically exempted (eg Listed Shares, Managed Funds and Commercial Property).
The Gold must be purchased by the SMSF directly from a non related entity.
edit:
rang up and spoke to the actual ppl managing the fund, they misunderstood me. They though it was a transfer of assets
if a clear cash transaction took place it is fine. problem is if its over 5k you need all the ID stuff etc etc i think.
if you could sell it to a dealer and purchase it back with CASH via your superfund it is FINE. So, if you know a dealer frriend willing to write you out invoices for the sale, it is FINE.
Glad to see that sanity has prevailed quickly in this discussion. You should definitely not do any related party transactions, no matter what, other than the three exceptions listed. Some of the rules are insane and work against the interests of your SMSF, but what can you do?
For example: You have a mortgage on which you pay 7.5% interest to the bank. You also have cash holdings in your SMSF, which you could invest with yourself to reduce the interest bearing balance of your mortgage, and pay the 7.5% interest to your SMSF, instead of the bank. You personally would not be any better or worse off, while your SMSF would be much better off getting 7.5% interest on its cash holdings than getting half of that from the bank.
It would make sense, wouldn't it? It sure would, but you are not permitted to "lend" to related parties, so your SMSF loses out.
Blue murder, I shout, but nobody is listening and nobody is interested. Which raises the question: For whose benefit have some these rules been imposed on SMSF? Really?
For example: You have a mortgage on which you pay 7.5% interest to the bank. You also have cash holdings in your SMSF, which you could invest with yourself to reduce the interest bearing balance of your mortgage, and pay the 7.5% interest to your SMSF, instead of the bank. You personally would not be any better or worse off, while your SMSF would be much better off getting 7.5% interest on its cash holdings than getting half of that from the bank.
It would make sense, wouldn't it? It sure would, but you are not permitted to "lend" to related parties, so your SMSF loses out.
Blue murder, I shout, but nobody is listening and nobody is interested. Which raises the question: For whose benefit have some these rules been imposed on SMSF? Really?