"Minting the coin would be nothing but an accounting fiction" Krugman

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January 8, 2013, 5:00 pm Paul Krugman

Rage Against the Coin

Source: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/08/rage-against-the-coin/

(From Talking Points Memo).

Well, the trillion-dollar-coin thing deal with the debt ceiling by exploiting a legal loophole to have the Treasury mint one or more large-denomination coins, deposit them at the Fed, and use the cash in the new account to pay bills has really taken off. Last month I spoke with a senior Fed official who had never heard of the idea; these days it's all over.

There seem to be two kinds of objections. One is that it would be undignified. Here's how to think about that: we have a situation in which a terrorist may be about to walk into a crowded room and threaten to blow up a bomb he's holding. It turns out, however, that the Secret Service has figured out a way to disarm this maniac a way that for some reason will require that the Secretary of the Treasury briefly wear a clown suit. (My fictional plotting skills have let me down, but there has to be some way to work this in). And the response of the nervous Nellies is, "My god, we can't dress the secretary up as a clown!" Even when it will make him a hero who saves the day?

The other objection is the apparently primordial fear that mocking the monetary gods will bring terrible retribution.

Joe Weisenthal says that the coin debate is the most important fiscal policy debate of our lifetimes; I agree, with two slight quibbles it's arguably more of a monetary than a fiscal debate, and it's really part of the broader debate that has been going on ever since we entered the liquidity trap.

What the hysterics see is a terrible, outrageous attempt to pay the government's bills out of thin air. This is utterly wrong, and in fact is wrong on two levels.

The first level is that in practice minting the coin would be nothing but an accounting fiction, enabling the government to continue doing exactly what it would have done if the debt limit were raised.

Remember that the coin is supposed to be deposited at the Fed, which is effectively just a semi-autonomous government agency. As the federal government proper drew on its new Fed account, the Fed would probably respond by selling off some of its $3 trillion balance sheet. In effect, the consolidated federal government, including the Fed, would be financing its operations by selling debt instruments, just as always.

But what if the Fed decided not to shrink its outside balance sheet? Even so, under current conditions it would make no difference because we're in a liquidity trap, with market interest rates on short-term federal debt near zero. Under these conditions, issuing short-term debt and just "printing money" (actually, crediting banks with additional reserves that they can convert into paper cash if they choose) are completely equivalent in their effect, so even huge increases in the monetary base (reserves plus cash) aren't inflationary at all.

And if you're tempted to deny this diagnosis, I have to ask, what would it take to convince you? The other side of this debate has been predicting runaway inflation for more than four years, as the monetary base has tripled. The same people predicted soaring interest rates from government borrowing. Meanwhile, the liquidity-trap people like me predicted what would actually happen: low inflation and low rates. This has to be the most decisive real-world test of opposing theories ever.

So minting the coin would be undignified, but so what? At the same time, it would be economically harmless and would both avoid catastrophic economic developments and help head off government by blackmail.

What we all hope, of course, is that the prospect of the coin or some equivalent strategy will simply take the debt ceiling off the table. But if not, mint the darn coin.

09 JANUARY 2013 POSTED BY JESSE AT 12:24 PM

Source: http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/please-proceed-mr-krugman.html

Please Proceed, Mr. Krugman...

"Well, the trillion-dollar-coin thing deal with the debt ceiling by exploiting a legal loophole to have the Treasury mint one or more large-denomination coins, deposit them at the Fed, and use the cash in the new account to pay bills has really taken off. Last month I spoke with a senior Fed official who had never heard of the idea; these days it's all over. [It has been around for quite some time in monetary theory circles, where P.K. apparently does not dally - Jesse]

There seem to be two kinds of objections.

One is that it would be undignified. Here's how to think about that: we have a situation in which a terrorist may be about to walk into a crowded room and threaten to blow up a bomb he's holding. It turns out, however, that the Secret Service has figured out a way to disarm this maniac a way that for some reason will require that the Secretary of the Treasury briefly wear a clown suit. (My fictional plotting skills have let me down, but there has to be some way to work this in). And the response of the nervous Nellies is, "My god, we can't dress the secretary up as a clown!" Even when it will make him a hero who saves the day?

[Is that like 'The Committee to Save the World?' I would not call it disarming the maniac so much as shooting the hostage to nullify the maniac's leverage. And the clown suits have already seen quite a bit of wear by economic policy whizkids in the past twenty years. Have you ever heard the one about how a US housing bubble is impossible? Or that markets do not need regulation because they are naturally efficient? Or that economics is, as Jamie K. Galbraith said, a 'disgraced profession?' - Jesse]

The other objection is the apparently primordial fear that mocking the monetary gods will bring terrible retribution. [There are no methods of argument so childish and often viciously petty than those that roam the halls of university departments, or talk radio. - Jesse]

Joe Weisenthal says that the coin debate is the most important fiscal policy debate of our lifetimes; I agree, with two slight quibbles it's arguably more of a monetary than a fiscal debate, [I can't believe you went there to grab a cheap point but one must do what one must when they don't have anything else. - Jesse] and it's really part of the broader debate that has been going on ever since we entered the liquidity trap. [It has been going on for time immemorial, for those that have looked at the history of money more deeply than the pages of the NY Times. - Jesse]

What the hysterics [DeLong derided them as 'puritans' when they brought up the moral hazard of TARP, and they were right - Jesse] see is a terrible, outrageous attempt to pay the government's bills out of thin air. This is utterly wrong, and in fact is wrong on two levels.

The first level is that in practice minting the coin would be nothing but an accounting fiction, [a fiction has more weight than thin air? - Jesse] enabling the government to continue doing exactly what it would have done if the debt limit were raised."

Paul Krugman, Rage Against the Coin, 8 January 2013

No this is not correct Mr Krugman. IF the debt limit is raised, the Treasury can continue to issue more debt subject to the same constraints of the marketplace. But once they take the step of erasing the existing debt through the ridiculous gimmick of over monetization, the process can never be the same again.

The current monetary expansion and system at least maintains a pretense of virtue, and the virtue of Caesar's wife must be above suspicion.

As an experiment I talked with a few intelligent people, mostly engineering types, who don't really have the time to follow the details of economics. I asked them about 'the platinum coin' and they mostly said, 'Oh I heard about it but don't really understand it.'

When I explained what it actually was, they all thought it was barking mad, and found it hard to believe. You see, the vast majority of people still hold to their illusions about how things are in the world.

Personally I think the whole debt limit concept and debate is ridiculous, because the spending has already passed through the appropriations process in Congress where it belongs. If they wish to change something they should do it there.

I would like to see Obama take a principled stand, as that wily politician Clinton did, and call them on their threats as he ought to have done on the fiscal cliff, but deferred out of concern for the unemployed, the middle class, and at least eight important corporate subsidies.

The 'platinum coin' permits direct monetization of debt in a non-market transaction between the Treasury and the Fed, which is something that the supposedly independent Fed does not allow. This is the mechanism which, in Greenspan's words, emulates the rigor of the and external standard like gold in imbuing confidence to the process.

The MMTers address this risk in confidence with arguments similar to a reaction I saw recently to a comparison of such gimmicky monetization to Weimar. 'Their currency failed because the debt they had to pay was denominated in foreign currency.'

And this is correct. In an increasingly brazen monetization, political control over the users of the currency and holders of the debt becomes increasingly important. And Germany did not have the power to exert control over those countries, England and France in particular, which held their debt. That attempt at expanding their control was to come later.

When faith falters in a false proposition based on the need for ever increasing expansion, first fraud and then force must ensue, or it fails. Just ask Bernie Madoff or Jon Law.

Now I think I understand that Mr. Krugman is doing the time honored thing that many publicly important economists tend to do, which is carrying the analytical water for his political team, which is all good and well. I am not opposed to many of the things he recommends, if only he could bring himself to realize that reforming the system as Roosevelt did while providing stimulus is a sine qua non.

But what Mr. Krugman forgets is that when the other side makes themselves look silly and irresponsible, there is some merit in acting like an adult and taking the higher ground, refusing to stoop to the same level. When you deal with thugs, they can drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience. It is no accident that the Congressional approval rating, driven largely by the House Republicans, is at all time lows.

People may be slow to react, but they are not entirely stupid. "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time."

And I think, or perhaps even fear, that Mr. Krugman does believe what he is saying. At first I was skeptical, but then I read back a little and found this initial flaw in his assumptions.
"...the Federal Reserve is not obliged to tie the dollar to anything. It can print as much or as little money as it deems appropriate."
This is correct, but one must add, subject to the valuation assigned to that money by those portions of the marketplace that the monetary authority cannot otherwise intimidate, manipulate, or control, if confidence unravels.

I am not a hard money advocate. But if Mr. Krugman wants to keep making the case for hard money, and provoke a reaction that we all may eventually regret, he should keep making the case that our current system of money is little more than 'an accounting fiction.' People are already suffering financial repression because of the Fed's misguided policies of stimulus without sufficient repair and renewal.

And the argument of 'where is the inflation' is not all that dissimilar to the arguments we heard while the credit bubble was pumped up, the financial sector expanded beyond all reasonable measure, and fraud inflated bonuses from 2003 to 2007, 'where is the financial crisis?'

I know this may sound harsh, but when one is in a very public position of power, and standing for what remains of the liberal conscience and the tattered liberal class, it does provide a very loud amplifier, and bring some additional responsibilities.

I will give credit to Obama that he rarely descends to such silliness. Although he does seem to lack the higher leadership skills and unshakable principles for which he clearly stands, in the manner of an FDR, a JFK, Jackson, or a Lincoln. He is a Chamberlain, a cynical dealmaker, and not a Churchill.

And that is a pity, because that is what the times require.

Without substantial reform, there will be no sustainable recovery.
 
Krugman is a well documented idiot. His solution to everything is print more money. Time and again when the US economy has faulted he has argued for more stimulus via the printing presses. 5 years of printing and stimulus hasn't worked so what is his solution - do more of it! A totally discredited hack and not worth wasting time with unless you want a good laugh.
Of course, the idiots in the USA love him because he wants bigger government and more interference.
 
I posted this in the other thread but thought it was worth reposting here.

Dogmatix said:
Seems the idea is fairly mainstream now...

1958_1120cbcomic-platinum-coin1.jpg


Source: http://boingboing.net/2013/01/09/tom-the-dancing-bug-and-a-pla.html
 
doomsday surprise said:
Krugman is a well documented idiot. His solution to everything is print more money. Time and again when the US economy has faulted he has argued for more stimulus via the printing presses. 5 years of printing and stimulus hasn't worked so what is his solution - do more of it! A totally discredited hack and not worth wasting time with unless you want a good laugh.
Of course, the idiots in the USA love him because he wants bigger government and more interference.

I agree completely. In one breath this guy is calling the creation of the coin a fraudulent fiction, then in the next saying it should be done because nothing should be beyond moral limitation when it comes to saving the USA's failing economy. He does realize the effect this will have on the trust of international holders US T-Bonds, doesn't he?
 
I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Maloney was revising his chapter on historical failed fiat currencies for the next edition of ''Investing in Gold and Silver", literally right now. History being played out before our eyes.

No amount of circuses or gladiator bouts can distract growing numbers of people from whats coming.
 
Henry Wartooth said:
Notice the comic says "a coin worth a trillion dollars"

Are people thinking the platinum itself is worth a trillion dollars?

Wouldn't surprise me :)

They don't even know what a $20 gold coin is worth (hint: more than $20)

(But not people on here obviously)
 
Henry Wartooth said:
Notice the comic says "a coin worth a trillion dollars"

Are people thinking the platinum itself is worth a trillion dollars?


That would be a mighty big coin.
 
possum said:
Henry Wartooth said:
Notice the comic says "a coin worth a trillion dollars"

Are people thinking the platinum itself is worth a trillion dollars?


That would be a mighty big coin.

Well yeah, it'd be a coin weighing just over 20,000 tonnes.

I'm not even sure if there is that much currently available.

According to wiki: "Of the 245 tonnes of platinum sold in 2010, 113 tonnes were used for vehicle emissions control devices (46%), 76 tonnes for jewelry (31%). The remaining 35.5 tonnes went to various other minor applications, such as investment, electrodes, anticancer drugs, oxygen sensors, spark plugs and turbine engines"
 
In the other thread on this I calculated that for 1Trillion worth of platinum to be used for the coin, it would require over 500 years global annual production of the metal.

Maybe that's part of the plan? A plan for Americans to pay off their existing debt over 500 years - the creditors being the portion of the rest of humanity that happens to produce platinum.
 
Krugman:

And if you're tempted to deny this diagnosis, I have to ask, what would it take to convince you? The other side of this debate has been predicting runaway inflation for more than four years, as the monetary base has tripled. The same people predicted soaring interest rates from government borrowing. Meanwhile, the liquidity-trap people like me predicted what would actually happen: low inflation and low rates. This has to be the most decisive real-world test of opposing theories ever.

This is a reasonable point. For years I have expected imminent collapse of the US economy and it hasn't happened yet. Therefore I WAS WRONG. I suspect every single one of you was WRONG too, as have been the assorted gurus spruiked here.

Why?

(PS. Denial isn't an argument.)
 
hennypenny said:
Krugman:

And if you're tempted to deny this diagnosis, I have to ask, what would it take to convince you? The other side of this debate has been predicting runaway inflation for more than four years, as the monetary base has tripled. The same people predicted soaring interest rates from government borrowing. Meanwhile, the liquidity-trap people like me predicted what would actually happen: low inflation and low rates. This has to be the most decisive real-world test of opposing theories ever.

This is a reasonable point. For years I have expected imminent collapse of the US economy and it hasn't happened yet. Therefore I WAS WRONG. I suspect every single one of you was WRONG too, as have been the assorted gurus spruiked here.

Why?

(PS. Denial isn't an argument.)
I was correct its called reality .Look past the BS & spin & you will quickly realise that they will do anything & i mean anything to keep it going
 
hennypenny said:
Krugman:

And if you're tempted to deny this diagnosis, I have to ask, what would it take to convince you? The other side of this debate has been predicting runaway inflation for more than four years, as the monetary base has tripled. The same people predicted soaring interest rates from government borrowing. Meanwhile, the liquidity-trap people like me predicted what would actually happen: low inflation and low rates. This has to be the most decisive real-world test of opposing theories ever.

This is a reasonable point. For years I have expected imminent collapse of the US economy and it hasn't happened yet. Therefore I WAS WRONG. I suspect every single one of you was WRONG too, as have been the assorted gurus spruiked here.

Why?

(PS. Denial isn't an argument.)

Talk about jumping the gun a bit?

I don't think it's time to start 'FiatStackers' just yet.

I think of out like this: we're currently in a high fire danger environment. We get warnings continually about the dangers and imminent threat of uncontrollable fires. But just because your house doesn't burn in January, does not mean it is safe for February.

Krugman's argument is about the people who cry wolf - there was no wolf so therefore they should be ignored. His credibility (not that i think he has any) will be eaten by the wolf when it finally arrives.

Edit: Ps, you're only 'wrong' if you set a date. Steve Keen was wrong. Yippee was wrong. Maybe you were wrong too. Time to sell the stack then?
 
Dogmatix wrote:

Edit: Ps, you're only 'wrong' if you set a date. Steve Keen was wrong. Yippee was wrong. Maybe you were wrong too. Time to sell the stack then?

Already have sold. For a profit. (See http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-28672-selling-silver-is-a-major-mistake.html )

I still expect ultimate collapse of the US economy but I think it's delusional not to admit the ball-jugglers and can-kickers have greater skill than was widely anticipated.

I also think everything still points to precious metals initially falling when stocks do, so that's the time to buy, not when stocks are riding high. (Disclaimer: yes I could be wrong.)
 
hennypenny said:
Krugman:

And if you're tempted to deny this diagnosis, I have to ask, what would it take to convince you? The other side of this debate has been predicting runaway inflation for more than four years, as the monetary base has tripled. The same people predicted soaring interest rates from government borrowing. Meanwhile, the liquidity-trap people like me predicted what would actually happen: low inflation and low rates. This has to be the most decisive real-world test of opposing theories ever.

This is a reasonable point. For years I have expected imminent collapse of the US economy and it hasn't happened yet. Therefore I WAS WRONG. I suspect every single one of you was WRONG too, as have been the assorted gurus spruiked here.

Why?

(PS. Denial isn't an argument.)

Just nonsense Hennypenny, you were right before, and its only NOW that you're wrong.

There HAS been runaway inflation, its just not reflected in the phony CPI numbers: http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...bles-down-inflation-prediction-144054976.html
 
hennypenny said:
Krugman:

And if you're tempted to deny this diagnosis, I have to ask, what would it take to convince you? The other side of this debate has been predicting runaway inflation for more than four years, as the monetary base has tripled. The same people predicted soaring interest rates from government borrowing. Meanwhile, the liquidity-trap people like me predicted what would actually happen: low inflation and low rates. This has to be the most decisive real-world test of opposing theories ever.

This is a reasonable point. For years I have expected imminent collapse of the US economy and it hasn't happened yet. Therefore I WAS WRONG. I suspect every single one of you was WRONG too, as have been the assorted gurus spruiked here.

Why?

(PS. Denial isn't an argument.)
FYI My own thinking since ~2009, and the various people I listened to (and took seriously), was that the first pressure was always first and foremost the deflation in asset prices as the funny money based on monetising and remonetising every asset in existence evaporated. It's a financial crisis after all, and that affects (debt-based) asset prices before general prices.

The freshly printed cash was first and foremost to shore up the balance sheets of the banksters to prevent them from going under (since the fictional T-accounting of solvency was based principally on assets whose values turned out to be false). So the first tranches of QE went directly to things like TARP to give cash for crappy "assets" so that the banksters would still exist. This is NOT inflationary in and of itself as it is principally replacing the bank-created components of M1 with the central bank M0.

What we should have seen in the absence of the initial rounds of QE was DEFLATION. We did not see this because of the printed cash. Although this parallels Krugman it comes from different economic paradigms like Schiff, Rothbard, Rockwell etc.

The inflation always lags the money supply and people like Schiff openly said this years ago. How long the lag is differs from event to event as there are lots of interrelated pieces of the puzzle that make any single time-based prediction fraught. What we have NOT seen is an economic recovery (as predicted by Schiff et al) despite being FIVE YEARS into the GFC. What we have seen is the switch from printing money for a short term shoring up of balance sheets (which is still playing out as new asset problems keep cropping up and the Basel III rules will require more cash on balance sheets etc) to the money printing being used to outright monetise Government expenditure (aka Zimbabwe, Weimar etc).

The inflation will happen once the banks eventually get into the position to lend out the new M0, which as Pirocco and I have posted before has not left the central banks yet (see the "Net M0" line on the graph and you'll notice it has essentially been rising at trend). Once that new M0 enters the real economy, that is when the inflation will happen. Once the US Govt bonds are dumped, that's when the US will experience extreme-inflation.

6824_m0_from_1959_.jpg


I believe there are a couple of possibilities that will allow the US to significantly reduce the future stagflation etc but I have serious doubts that they will have the political will to do it.

On a final point while talking predictions, hyperinflation is not certain, default is. Silver and gold rising substantially in the next couple of years is not certain either. Silver and gold being one of the best possible hedges against the coming inflation for the medium term, however is certain (IMHO).

My two fiat cents worth :P

Edit: This is the link to the earlier thread which also shows the true money supply growth. (I must admit, I didn't think the delay would take this long to come through but makes sense in hindsight.)
 
hennypenny said:
Dogmatix wrote:

Edit: Ps, you're only 'wrong' if you set a date. Steve Keen was wrong. Yippee was wrong. Maybe you were wrong too. Time to sell the stack then?

Already have sold. For a profit. (See http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-28672-selling-silver-is-a-major-mistake.html )

I still expect ultimate collapse of the US economy but I think it's delusional not to admit the ball-jugglers and can-kickers have greater skill than was widely anticipated.

I also think everything still points to precious metals initially falling when stocks do, so that's the time to buy, not when stocks are riding high. (Disclaimer: yes I could be wrong.)

You are wrong on both counts. Even going back to my posts when i first joined this site months ago, i explained this in detail. Firstly that the can kickers and ball jugglers have any skill what so ever. When the US collapses is not in their hands or for that matter any American.

Secondly, and relates to the first epic fail of Krugmans premis that there has been no inflation. Sure the CPI is lying to every American who reads it. Sure real prices in the US are up closer to 10% in reality. But that doesn't reflect the "run away" inflation predicted by the likes of Peter Schiff.

Why? Because while the monetary base has tripled, all of that extra cash isn't circulating in the US economy. Krugman is right, it's a liquidity trap, but it's a liquidity trap that has the vast majority of all those US dollars trapped in 3 places. China's and Japan's central banks are the biggest and then the commercial banks that the Fed and the treasury are giving a free ride to run a distant third.

There HAS to be a turning point. There is already one set in stone that is slowly approaching in Japan with its aging population over the next decade or so. That will surely trigger the Chinese to offload. That is the best case scenario for the US and still gives it time to sort out its defecits and restructure its economy. A worst case scenario is China cracking the shits at the US for debasing it's currency (and the value of its 3T assets it currently holds) by doing something stupid like minting trillion dollar coins, and China dumping them wholesale(it's US assets).

All of that exported inflation will come flooding back to the US faster than a tsunami hitting a Japanese nuclear plant. No one will want to deal in USD over night. That will make Weimar and Zimbabwe look like they had paper shortages at the time.
 
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