Milkspotting on Perth Mint 2015 kilo Kookaburra
- Thread starter SpacePete
- Start date
barsenault
Well-Known Member
dragafem said:
Indeed, I agree with you 100%. It won't be much different than all the others out there. I'll never, ever buy a Panda Kilo for this reason. Luckily I got the 5 I have at a discount, but they are starting to develop very faint spots. I've already sold 2, and will get rid of the other 3 once spot goes up a bit. Terrible. I can't believe anyone would take a chance on those earlier year Panda kilos (2008 - 2013) for thousands...they are certain to form spots. Terrible. Never again. At least with the PM kilos, you're only looking at 1.80 over spot per ounce...that I can deal with if spots develop...
Gatito Bandito
Active Member
Ronnie 666 said:
I honestly don't think there will be a quick fix to this.
There are just so many variables, and so much testing/experimenting, that I'm sure it will take a while, unfortunately.
Which step, in particular, might be activating the spotting?
Basically, they're going to have to set aside for monitoring some batch samples after *every* single process along the way, from start to finish. And under various environmental conditions, at that, both during production & post-production.
And once they pinpoint, it's still not over, as they're going to have to try to revise that particular step, where it wouldn't produce any spotting (or introduce any new issues). Likewise for introducing any new additional steps which might possibly eradicate/prevent the issue.
Of course, all this has to be done under the usual corporate bureaucracy & budget constraints, while still maintaining production of current & future issues.
Hopefully, though, this will be high on the PM's priority list.
No one expects the problem to be fixed tomorrow. However, it would be nice for the PM to tell us there is an issue, this what we are going to do to fix it and rest assured it will be fixed. We will also update you on our progress. I would also hope that it is resolved before the issue of the lunar series in September. That is what I would do if I was running the PM. However I am not so let us wait and see the response from the other Ron.
SilverPete said:
The problem with that is that these spots may take years to evolve and by then those products are sold out and the mintage closed...
Golden ChipMunk
Well-Known Member
I suspect is the chemicals they used.
It could also be sweat from the personals who put those blank coins in the dies.
Seen them making those coins. The temperature in those factory sometimes can be higher. The workers do sweat.
Yes, the workers do wear gloves.
May be I should go there and investigate theirs procedures and see what fails there.
It could also be sweat from the personals who put those blank coins in the dies.
Seen them making those coins. The temperature in those factory sometimes can be higher. The workers do sweat.
Yes, the workers do wear gloves.
May be I should go there and investigate theirs procedures and see what fails there.
barsenault said:
For those of us in the US, ASEs have significant advantages over Lunars:
There are many ASEs dealers who will buy and sell in large quantities. The coins have low premiums and their sales are private.
There are very few PM dealers in the US and some, like Gainesvillecoins, offer miniscule lunar buy back premiums ($1-3 including the 2010 1oz tigers). The coins have medium to high bullion premiums and their sales are not private.
I buy silver coins as an investment, not for a SHTF situation. The PM needs to fix the milk spotting problem before the 2016 coins are issued or I will be out too. RCM milkspotting killed the Canadian Wildlife coin values and once burnt is twice shy.
My future silver coin purchases will either be PM (lunars & kooks) or ASEs. Which coins I buy will be determined by whether or not the PM fixes this problem. I like Lunars and believe they are an excellent niche market. But if the problem isn't corrected, I will sell my lunars over the course of a year and never look back. Fortunately, most of my 2008 & 2010 1oz silver lunars have nice premiums and are selling well.
barsenault
Well-Known Member
dccpa said:
Amen, coin preacher man...I couldn't have said it better myself. I won't look back either...but I'll be holding on to what I have. LOL. But nothing looking forward if this problem isn't solved...and if I see one of my kilo horses get riddled...with all I've done to 'protect' them...that is the nail in the coffin for me...I'll stick with ASE's, especially with Silver being this low. I've already started stacking ounces of eagles in my silver saver account.
Pirocco
Well-Known Member
Suspended sales tend to be compensated for by extra sales the next month.dragafem said:
Happened in nearly all years I was in the silver (2011+).
Likely reason = the volatile price and demand, and to not have to sell 2014 coins to primary dealers in 2015.
I think that somewhere in the later months of the year they start using a 2015 die, and that they thus have to estimate the rest of the years primary dealer demand at that point, several weeks / months may be hard with the demand fluctuations, making them play safe, being 'certainly enough lower than what is probable'.
In this scenario it's not about 'keeping up with demand', but production planned that way, for the likely reason above.
Pirocco
Well-Known Member
An own country produced coin, with an own country produced currency face value, is always a winner in the local competition.dccpa said:
In the EU, Netherland, the ASE's have a big premium. The difference is high enough to chose in favor on Philharmonikers. Yet, and this is weird and contradictional to it: Maples, also an outside EU produced coin, equally far as ASE geographically, cost since a few years as much as Philharmonikers. Sometimes even less. In february 2011, in Netherland, the costbased choice Philharmoniker > Maple Leaf > Silver Eagle was a low middle high, with low to middle same distance as middle to high. That changed, in a degree, some months later in 2011.
But as of now, it's 16,55 > 16,65 > 17,30 so a ASE order delivers 4.5 % less silver than a Phil order.
In feb 2011 the Phil was 27.80 and ASE was 28.33 so an ASE order delivered 1.9% less silver than a Phil order.
While the Maple case became the same as the Phil case.
So somehow, the to the ASE comparable shipping and EU import cost factor for the Maple price is offset by another factor. Milk spot factor?
By the way, these were the Maple Leaf sales:
1997 100,970
1998 591,359
1999 1,229,442
1999-2000 dual date 300,000
2000 403,652
2001 398,563
2002 576,196
2003 684,750
2004 680,925
2005 955,694
2006 2,464,727
2007 3,526,052
2008 7,909,161
2009 9,727,592
2010 17,799,992
2011 23,129,966
2012 18,132,297
2013 28,200,000
So quite some sold many years ago.
Anyone that bought such older years Maples?
Milk spot experience compared to recent years?
The premium set by the US Mint which it raises periodically is higher than that of similar investment coins which is why it is more expensive than the maple leaf and the philharmoniker. Has nothing to do with milk spots or shipping costs. The ASE costs more than maples and philarmonikers in the US.
barsenault
Well-Known Member
Caput Lupinum said:
understand the rational as to why they have a premium...and that premium for us the buyer, means it should come without spots today or 10 years from now.
Caput Lupinum said:
Within the range of premiums for ASEs, CMLs, etc., I am not concerned about total premium, but net premium. The net premium on ASEs is $1.19 vs. $1.49 on Philarmonikers and $1.59 on CMLs. So for me, the ASEs are the net cheapest and have all the other advantages that I mentioned.
Pirocco
Well-Known Member
Yepbarsenault said:
And the subject of my post was the Maple Leaf from RCM not the Silver Eagle from USM. Other coins were just mentioned as a price comparison.
Case EU Netherland dealer
Now Maple and Phil price is about the same.
Early 2011 the Maple price sat in the middle between Phil and ASE.
Now Maple price = Phil price.
That's a difference, and hence I wondered if the Maple price was dropped (by dealers, wholesale?) due to the spot vulnerability. If a Maple costs substantially more than a Phil, then EU side may decide to shop the Phils. At a same price, the Maple may have a chance.
Pirocco said:
Ron Currie
New Member
Milk spot (or white spot) is a topic that other mints rarely like to discuss. In view of recent concerns expressed about this general lack of transparency, I'd like to get on the front foot and tell you what The Perth Mint is doing to minimize the problem.
Milk spots are opaque, cloudy blemishes that can appear on silver coins after they have left the mint. The vast majority of Perth Mint silver coins are unaffected by this issue. However, when they do appear, it's understandable that investors and collectors are concerned.
Milk spots have been attributed to a range of potential causes. In our experience the exact reason is difficult to pinpoint, with recent analysis effectively ruling out crucible contamination and water quality issues.
Now, Perth Mint metallurgists are working on the theory that microscopic airborne particles are largely to blame.
Although not conclusive, investigations have found a minute piece of debris at the centre of milk spots on a couple of affected coins. Surrounding each 'inclusion' were silver chloride (AgCI) crystals which created the milky blotch. In a further discovery, each piece of debris was raised above the coin surface, indicating that it had settled after striking.
More work is being carried out to confirm the composition of the debris but our immediate response has been a comprehensive cleaning program for the removal of dust and microscopic debris from all productions areas, including the trolleys used to transport coins around the factory.
All compressed air line filters have been cleaned to eliminate oil and water build-up, while our air conditioning filters have also been replaced to prevent airborne particles from entering the production areas.
Each of these actions is scheduled to be repeated regularly.
Finally, we've started quarantining some product before shipment to monitor whether this approach is working.
Fortunately, it seems that The Perth Mint is not as badly affected by this perplexing problem as some other mints and I'm pleased to report that we've already seen some further reduction. While it remains exceptionally difficult to eliminate completely, I am happy to reassure customers that we will never duck this critical issue as we seek all possible means to minimise its occurrence.
Milk spots are opaque, cloudy blemishes that can appear on silver coins after they have left the mint. The vast majority of Perth Mint silver coins are unaffected by this issue. However, when they do appear, it's understandable that investors and collectors are concerned.
Milk spots have been attributed to a range of potential causes. In our experience the exact reason is difficult to pinpoint, with recent analysis effectively ruling out crucible contamination and water quality issues.
Now, Perth Mint metallurgists are working on the theory that microscopic airborne particles are largely to blame.
Although not conclusive, investigations have found a minute piece of debris at the centre of milk spots on a couple of affected coins. Surrounding each 'inclusion' were silver chloride (AgCI) crystals which created the milky blotch. In a further discovery, each piece of debris was raised above the coin surface, indicating that it had settled after striking.
More work is being carried out to confirm the composition of the debris but our immediate response has been a comprehensive cleaning program for the removal of dust and microscopic debris from all productions areas, including the trolleys used to transport coins around the factory.
All compressed air line filters have been cleaned to eliminate oil and water build-up, while our air conditioning filters have also been replaced to prevent airborne particles from entering the production areas.
Each of these actions is scheduled to be repeated regularly.
Finally, we've started quarantining some product before shipment to monitor whether this approach is working.
Fortunately, it seems that The Perth Mint is not as badly affected by this perplexing problem as some other mints and I'm pleased to report that we've already seen some further reduction. While it remains exceptionally difficult to eliminate completely, I am happy to reassure customers that we will never duck this critical issue as we seek all possible means to minimise its occurrence.
As the cloudy spot is a precipitate of silver chloride which is highly insoluble in water is there any method to remove these spots without destroying the numismatic value of the coin? Silver chloride is more soluble in 10% aqueous ammonia solution. I believe it is 50,000 times more soluble in 10% ammonia? Perhaps a long immersion in 10% ammonia may remove the spots? Also Sodium Thiosulphate 15% sollubilizes silver chloride? I also know that this solution is not clear and smells of sulphur. Also it may tone the coin if exposed to light? May be worth trying on a maple or two?