manipulation implication.

Deutsche Bank Records Said to Show Silver Rigging at Other Banks

"Eight months after Deutsche Bank AG settled a lawsuit claiming it manipulated gold and silver prices, documents it disclosed as part of the accord provide "smoking gun" proof that UBS Group AG, HSBC Holdings Plc, Bank of Nova Scotia and other firms rigged the silver market, plaintiffs claim."

"The Deutsche Bank documents show two UBS traders communicated directly with two Deutsche Bank traders and discussed ways to rig the market, the plaintiffs said. Among other things, the traders shared customer order-flow information, improperly triggered customer stop-loss orders, and engaged in practices such as spoofing. Spoofing entails submitting bids or offers with the intention of canceling them before they're executed as a way to drive prices."

"UBS was the third-largest market maker in the silver spot market and could directly influence the prices of silver financial instruments based on the sheer volume of silver it traded," the plaintiffs allege. "Conspiring with other large market makers, like Deutsche Bank and HSBC, only increased UBS's ability to influence the market."

read more at: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ds-alleged-to-show-banks-rigged-silver-prices
 
Ipv6Ready said:
systematic said:
more info on manipulation, chat transcripts and the filing at: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...proof-massive-rigging-and-fraud-silver-market
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bloody hell. so will the silver price tank without these guys holding the price up.
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It does not seem they are holding the price up ...


From the article:

"The Deutsche Bank documents show, among other things, how two UBS traders communicated directly with two Deutsche Bank traders and discussed ways to rig the market. The traders shared customer order-flow information, improperly triggered customer stop-loss orders, and engaged in practices such as spoofing, all meant to destabilize the price of silver ahead of the fix and result in forced selling or buying. It is also what has led on so many occasions to the infamous previous metals "slam", when out of nowhere billions in notional contracts emerge, usually with the intent to sell, to halt any upside moment in the precious metals"
 
Not a very sophicated group, reading the links though it's not really cartel but bunch of individual traders lining its own pockets by few to ten million in bonus, nothing earth shattering.
 
I would not be surprised if part of their legal defence is they read stupid comments in forums like this and insist to the court the public don't mind ... they are not outraged or inconvenienced ... they get what they deserve ... what they expect ... what they want ... its not illegal to be stupid ...
 
systematic said:
Many of the chats involve a UBS trader known as "The Hammer," who on April 1, 2011, wrote a message urging coordination in trading, according to the records. "We gotta do it the same next time...if we are correct and do it together, we screw other people harder.

read more at: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ilver-mafia-traders-flexed-muscle-drew-blades

or just buy lots of vaseline and think how little difference manipulation makes .... keep on stacking ... it doesn't take brains ...
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Yes, I know this guy....he is actually M.C. Hammer.
He has being doing it since 1990. Used code I think. He knew he was untouchable back then because he reassured his partners with a song aimed squarely at the authorities. U can't touch this.

"...told you homeboy u can't touch this
Yeah that's how we're livin' and you know u can't touch this
Look in my eyes man u can't touch this
You know let me bust the funky lyrics u can't touch this.."

Wow....such arrogance.
 
systematic said:
Ipv6Ready said:
systematic said:
more info on manipulation, chat transcripts and the filing at: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...proof-massive-rigging-and-fraud-silver-market
Click to expand...


bloody hell. so will the silver price tank without these guys holding the price up.
Click to expand...

It does not seem they are holding the price up ...


From the article:

"The Deutsche Bank documents show, among other things, how two UBS traders communicated directly with two Deutsche Bank traders and discussed ways to rig the market. The traders shared customer order-flow information, improperly triggered customer stop-loss orders, and engaged in practices such as spoofing, all meant to destabilize the price of silver ahead of the fix and result in forced selling or buying. It is also what has led on so many occasions to the infamous previous metals "slam", when out of nowhere billions in notional contracts emerge, usually with the intent to sell, to halt any upside moment in the precious metals"
Click to expand...

Geeze, I wonder how many stackers here allegedly had their stop-losses potentially improperly triggered? :lol: ;)
I have discussed my opinions many times before, but I still get a chuckle at the semblant distress displayed here.

So much focus, on something so distant and irrelevant?
So much anguish over a paper stop-loss?
So much heartache over a proclaimed irrelevant paper price? ( :P )
One might think we are reading a trading / T/A forum?
 
systematic said:
Ipv6Ready said:
Not a very sophicated group
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And neither is this forum ... the difference is they are making money .... and stackers are going nowhere ...
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I think that statement says more than you realise. ;)
 
wrcmad said:
systematic said:
Ipv6Ready said:
Not a very sophicated group
Click to expand...

And neither is this forum ... the difference is they are making money .... and stackers are going nowhere ...
Click to expand...
I think that statement says more than you realise. ;)
Click to expand...

It is frustrating when banks and traders get caught interfering with the spot price and it gets silly reactions from its investors ...
 
systematic said:
Ipv6Ready said:
Not a very sophicated group
Click to expand...

And neither is this forum ... the difference is they are making money .... and stackers are going nowhere ...
Click to expand...

Is a stacker, someone who just buys and buys regardless what the fundamentals are?

I look at silver as hobby, so I am still intrigued by the number people who say they are stackers.
I presume most only a tiny few have holding in silver, that is significant in comparison to their wealth.
 
systematic said:
wrcmad said:
systematic said:
And neither is this forum ... the difference is they are making money .... and stackers are going nowhere ...
Click to expand...
I think that statement says more than you realise. ;)
Click to expand...

It is frustrating when banks and traders get caught interfering with the spot price and it gets silly reactions from its investors ...
Click to expand...
What is routinely ignored on this forum is that every market participant interferes with the spot price.
Once you grasp that concept, the frustration dissipates, and objectiveness can play a role in you making some of that money.
Every day, around $USD6 trillion is traded on markets world wide.... if you put your hand out, some of it has to stick. ;)
 
I don't know if there is an agreed definition to stacking ... i would imagine the plaintiffs and those involved in class action against the banks are not doing it for a hobby, are not petty sellers or suffer from intellectual disabilities ...
 
systematic said:
I don't know if there is an agreed definition to stacking ... i would imagine the plaintiffs and those involved in class action against the banks are not doing it for a hobby, are not petty sellers or suffer from intellectual disabilities ...
Click to expand...
That's right.
Zerobrains fails to mention that these trading tactics were employed in both directions.
Though they would love for it to be a price suppression smoking-gun... it wasn't.
It was a trading manoeuvre that out-smarted other traders in short-term price movements... and now the losers are eating sour grapes.
Busting stops is common practice for some... I've seen it at the amateur level in penny stocks.
How this becomes manipulation.... I don't know? I regard it as a witty trading strategy.
 
systematic said:
This is not a witty trading strategy .... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ilver-mafia-traders-flexed-muscle-drew-blades
Click to expand...
Though I will never condone busting your own client's stops (that is just greasy), I will point out that I only got through the second paragraph of that article before it became clear:

.... As early as 2008, one of its traders began conspiring with a trader at Fortis Bank, via electronic chat, to manipulate prices, according to court documents filed by silver investors seeking to broaden their claims that the market was rigged.
Click to expand...

This seems to be the common theme... and I find it both tedious, and amusing.
 
"The new evidence is derived from 350,000 pages of bank documents and 75 audio tapes handed over by Deutsche Bank"

That seems to be a fair reason to broaden a claim ....

and taking into account that Deutsche Bank agreed to pay $38 million to settle U.S. litigation over allegations it illegally conspired with other banks to fix silver prices at the expense of investors

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-deutsche-bank-settlement-silver-idUSKBN12H2HB
 
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