LBC's Badon Pulls Support For NCS

low said:
tamo42 said:
I agree, conservation is great. The problem is that you have no way of knowing if your coin has been conserved or not, and there have been many cases over the past year in which the coin was clearly not conserved even though it should have been.
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Not sure if I agree with you re the NCS should conserve the coin they don't think conservation will help the coin.

I have been reading about NCS for years, long before I know about MCC. One repeated question, and NCS keep answering IS, will NCS conserve every single coin presented to them? NO. NCS will only conserve coin that they believe conservation will help preserve the coin in the long term.

You have to pay for the time for them to inspect the coin to determine if further work required. That is fair business.
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Sure, but again, the problem is that there have been lots of instances where coins have *not* been conserved when they should have been. The lack of labeling is the main problem.

low said:
Every coin you are paid to conserve should at least get a solvent bath to remove residues (deionized water, MEK, acetone, ultrasound, voodoo, etc).
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Consider this example, a rich joker cracked an already NCS conserved MS69 and re-submit to NCS. Following the suggestion of every coin should be conserve, NCS do a 2nd conservation on this coin. And what if a 3rd time this same coin submitted again. 3rd conservation?

What if NCS found ZERO residues left on the coin? Still want a solvent bath?
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Virtually impossible for there to be zero residue from a mint state coin. If someone re-submitted cracked coins, I guess it would be possible. Proper conservation is non-destructive though, so it shouldn't matter.

In the end, do whatever it is that makes you happy :).
 
I support the move to label a coin that has been through the NCS process. Has NGC/NCS completely rejected this idea or is it one of those things they would like do but haven't come around to tackling it.

It makes sense for the NGC as well as the coin collector. For the NGC if they believe strongly in the 'protective' mechanism it will reduce the likelihood of a 'guarantee' claim gets submitted in the future. For the coin collector it gives them some peace of mind that their coin's grade will stand the test of time. If this is a win-win for both parties why would you not label the coin accordingly? I would happily pay the extra cost for conservation both at the coin grading as well in the secondary market for that extra peace of mind.

Two examples to illustrate this point

1. Bought this coin with the impression it was NCS/NGCed. Appeared that the seller made an honest mistake and the coin was purchased from another party where it is not known whether it has been NCSed. A simple C annotation on the NGC label would have helped.

http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-25923-advice-2006-10y-panda-ms70-white-spots-and-toning.html

2. A very recent 2009 MS70 coin which has developed milk spots that are not apparent on the initial NGC photos.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-China-...ultDomain_0&hash=item43afa703d7#ht_586wt_1185

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=3257477-029

I understand that coins can deteriorated over time and conservation may not completely remove this possibility. But you would have thought knowing whether a coin is truly NCSed would help everyone understand this better. No point sending it to NCS if it makes no difference.

When I send a coin in for conservation with NCS it would be nice to get a report as to what has been done. (Coin inspected , acetone, water bath etc or nothing required)

When a coin is sent be graded with NGC it would nice to get a report as to what issues that prevented it from getting 69 or 70.


I believe this will help us the coin collector be more educated in the process and for it to be more transparent. Happy to pay what is fair and reasonable for this level of service

At the moment somethings seem a bit of a 'mystery'
 
Justfishin said:
If you completed an NCS invoice with "C" chosen for under $300 raw--they will be conserved
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I send them to a NGC dealer and they just give me their own invoice .. But it written there , to convserved . Not sure if my local dealer will fill up another form for me or not :(

Some of my coins , i fully declare my coins like the 5oz medal at 495USD .. Feeling abit stupid now .. but i did that for the insurance purpose .. if i knew under 300 USD will get conserve , i would have under declare it ..

:(

My bad for not reading up the NCS regulation ...
 
Don't feel bad Lim... there is so much fine print, it makes it difficult to spot what you should look out for... At least you didn't become an ELITE member. :)
 
low said:
You have to pay for the time for them to inspect the coin to determine if further work required. That is fair business.
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How dare a business charge us for working and expending resources, I say they should do it for free !!! :D

Good point low ... :cool:
 
the only reason I would like to seen them mark a coin conserved ,is to just keep people from calling a non conserved coin conserved
 
Anyone selling a coin that has been NCS conserved has paperwork to prove it, if you lose the paperwork then download it from the NCS website. Making a PDF of your NCS invoice takes about oh like 5 seconds which can easily be emailed. So yea I wouldn't mind having the label stating "NCS Conserved" but honestly it's not a big killjoy for me. Almost irrelevant but that's just me.

As has been stated 1000 times do what makes you happy ! :D

The claim that NCS is going to cease to exist because of not putting "NCS Conserved" on the coin is laughable honestly. Collectors with high grade coins will always want them conserved. How many collectors of "high grade" coins do you know that do not conserve? I don't know any and communicate with four very large collectors several times a month.


A lot of people say "buy the coin not the holder", I've heard it a hundred times yea I agree with this to a point if you have the coin in hand but a tremendous amount of coins are purchased via the internet by looking at pictures.

Is it possible to grade a coin by looking at pictures ??? I will never drink this "kool-aid".

If coins could be graded with pictures then there would be no need to send them to PCGS or NGC, you could just send them pictures ok not gonna happen.

The majority of collectors "buy the grade" with confidence that the grading company has done their job, if a person does not trust the grading company, why buy graded coins? Doesn't make sense.

The majority of 67's and 68's that I own look I identical to the 69's with the naked eye, it is only when observed through a loupe can minute hairlines or other anomalies be seen, things that could never be seen with the naked eye on a picture from ebay. Maybe on my ebay account I should just take a picture of the MS68 coin without the NGC label in view and list the title as "buy the coin, not the holder"

I don't that will go very far ;)
 
comeaux said:
Anyone selling a coin that has been NCS conserved has paperwork to prove it, if you lose the paperwork then download it from the NCS website. Making a PDF of your NCS invoice takes about oh like 5 seconds which can easily be emailed. So yea I wouldn't mind having the label stating "NCS Conserved" but honestly it's not a big killjoy for me. Almost irrelevant but that's just me.

As has been stated 1000 times do what makes you happy ! :D

The claim that NCS is going to cease to exist because of not putting "NCS Conserved" on the coin is laughable honestly. Collectors with high grade coins will always want them conserved. How many collectors of "high grade" coins do you know that do not conserve? I don't know any and communicate with four very large collectors several times a month.


A lot of people say "buy the coin not the holder", I've heard it a hundred times yea I agree with this to a point if you have the coin in hand but a tremendous amount of coins are purchased via the internet by looking at pictures.

Is it possible to grade a coin by looking at pictures ??? I will never drink this "kool-aid".

If coins could be graded with pictures then there would be no need to send them to PCGS or NGC, you could just send them pictures ok not gonna happen.

The majority of collectors "buy the grade" with confidence that the grading company has done their job, if a person does not trust the grading company, why buy graded coins? Doesn't make sense.

The majority of 67's and 68's that I own look I identical to the 69's with the naked eye, it is only when observed through a loupe can minute hairlines or other anomalies be seen, things that could never be seen with the naked eye on a picture from ebay. Maybe on my ebay account I should just take a picture of the MS68 coin without the NGC label in view and list the title as "buy the coin, not the holder"

I don't that will go very far ;)
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What if the coin had change hands couple of time and somewhere the paper work is being lose , is it still possible to grab the information from NCS ?

Just bought a conserve coin and he claim there is no paper work as previous seller also never give it to him ..
But he say no milkspots and no toning and the cost of the coin is decent so i just grab it and send the $$$ over .. Crossing all fingers that it is indeed is NCS.... :P
 
With NCS it's not really about the 'grade' to me but how it looks to the naked eye. That's what I meant by buy the coin not the grade in this particular case.

If I see some beautiful pictures I would be willing to bid higher regardless of it being NCS'd or not, that's my point. Of course the grade is important but NCS influences the price between an ugly PF69 and a shiny fantastic PF69. The difference in price can be very large (as we all know WSOD would kill value).

As for NCS going out of business, it is possible. We know that PCGS is starting or has a conservation service somewhere hidden away. If they do well and does all the things NCS isn't doing and it is favored by collectors then it is entirely possible for NCS to go out of business as people move to PCGS away from NCS.

I don't think Badon specifically said that one simple non-labelling issue would drive NCS out of business. He is merely stating that a chain of failures (one of which is the non-labelling) by NCS management to understand collector's needs will be their downfall. That's how I read it anyway.

As it stands the entire premium of "NCS" coins is gone (ie. the premium solely based on having "NCS" ceteris parabis). Would you trust randomeBayseller to have NCS'd his coins? Sure you could ask for invoices but I know I won't have invoices for the coins I bought off yennus for example.
 
Honestly Lim if you don't trust the dealer, I wouldn't buy the coin.

I see many collectors jump on a coin like "OMG this is the last time I will get a deal like this" but in reality this is rarely the case. The majority of coins we all collect on this forum are readily available. Chances are if you pass up the "great deal" on a coin where you don't know or trust the dealer, that same coin will be available somewhere else in a day or so.

Yea sure it's "possible" that NCS could go "belly-up" just like any other company but highly doubt it because of the label seriously ? :D

Oh yea and PCGS "might" get into conservation that is a big "might" and I honestly don't know anyone who collects MCC that buys PCGS graded MCC's just look at this forum and CCF not many collectors on either board collect MCC in PCGS holders

How many here buy MCC in PCGS holders??? Do I hear crickets ???

I just looked through the photos thread and 99% were all NGC holdered coins :cool:
 
comeaux said:
How many here buy MCC in PCGS holders??? Do I hear crickets ???

I just looked through the photos thread and 99% were all NGC holdered coins :cool:
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I do.

There is no point arguing over it. Please, re-read what fishball wrote - not a discrete aspect like labeling, but not listening to the customer is the key. Like it or not, majority of the customers do like to get NCS labelled, and they turned a deaf ear to it. Fresh example of a company did not listen initially to customers ? Try Netflix - from > $300 to < $80 stock value. CEO apologized twice after that and reverted decisions. Not listening to customers is key to failure of any business.
 
I like this Panda Forum... everyone is so friendly... despite differing opinions :)

Thanks everyone! :)
 
comeaux said:
Oh yea and PCGS "might" get into conservation that is a big "might" and I honestly don't know anyone who collects MCC that buys PCGS graded MCC's just look at this forum and CCF not many collectors on either board collect MCC in PCGS holders

How many here buy MCC in PCGS holders??? Do I hear crickets ???

I just looked through the photos thread and 99% were all NGC holdered coins :cool:
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Let's not forget though 30 years ago nobody gave a crap about Microsoft either. Or thought that GE could go broke.

Pre Win 3.1 Era: Who uses "Windows"? Do I hear crickets ???

As an example more relevant to our interests, ANACS used to be a reputable grading company.

They screwed up or changed and are now nothing more than a mere shadow of their former glory.

Complacency breeds incompetence and I hope for the sake of my investment in MCC that NGC and NCS do not follow down that path.
 
Numismatics conservation is about coin preservation. We don't hear about this thing before NCS exist.

As we all know, toning is a tarnish, yet collector treasure it so much. Sometimes I was thinking, if NCS exist some thousands years ago, do today's collector still see toning as beauty, or they will call it problem coin?

Likewise, NCS has changed today's collector view of "quality" coin. NCS taught us that many "problem" could be fixed, and really has stretched the meaning of "quality" for a lot of people.

To me, it is not so much a problem whether NCS premium retain, the coin value should be reflected by the quality and the market supply/demand, not the services applied to it.

Sometimes I wonder why people talk so much of NCS premium. Sure conservation is good, but it is not magic. It takes good hand to provide great care to the coin after it is conserved.

What about storage premium? If my coins were kept in a strict temperature, humidity controlled environment, should it sell higher than your coin that was kept inside a box scattered somewhere in your dining room?

Arr talking about business not listening to the customer. Oh my beloved ebay and paypal. When can I kiss them goodbye?
 
No offense to anyone but I find it rather entertaining how badon post's one article about NCS labeling that has not changed in years and all of a sudden "bandwagoners" jump on like it is gospel.

Maybe I'm different than others but I formulate my methods and ideas by the research that I do and not by what one person posts in an internet forum.
 
fishball said:
I hope for the sake of my investment in MCC that NGC and NCS do not follow down that path.
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So fishy are you conveying from all of your posts on this NCS topic that from this point further that you will no longer send your coins to NCS? I'm just curious as to what you are going to do going forward ...

I'm actually confused about all of the hoopla in this thread as NOTHING has changed with NCS labeling except for the post of a member in another forum commenting on a practice they have been doing since their inception.

I read your comment "NCS has lost the premuim for a conserved coin" or something like that .... I do not ever recall there being a "premium" for and NCS conserved coin ?
 
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