Kilo Silver Proof COA

mmissinglink

mmissinglink

Active Member
Hi,

Does anyone know whether the COA number that comes with a Perth Mint proof silver 1 kilo coin (prior to the year 2012) is supposed to represent the actual mintage number of that coin?

The reason I ask, there's someone who is selling a silver kilo S2 proof coin advertising a COA number that is about 30 (numerically) above the mintage number specified in this chart: http://www.silverlunar.com/p/perth-mint-s2-silver-lunar-mintages_29.html

So, that leaves me wondering if the advertised COA number is higher than stated mintage numbers and it is supposed to represent the actual mintage number of that coin, then the coin is likely a fake.

Thanks for any help in clarifying this?
 
Wouldn't worry about it as they can sometimes not sell the full mintage and melt down whatever is not sold.

So the mintage could be 1,000 but they only sell 800 so the remaining 200 are melted down. But because they're not dealt with numerically and randomly scattered amongst distributors, you could easily receive COA #999. Make sense?
 
House said:
Wouldn't worry about it as they can sometimes not sell the full mintage and melt down whatever is not sold.

So the mintage could be 1,000 but they only sell 800 so the remaining 200 are melted down. But because they're not dealt with numerically and randomly scattered amongst distributors, you could easily receive COA #999. Make sense?
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Strange but makes sense
 
Hi House,

Thanks for your response but that doesn't make rational sense at all....you're saying that the Perth Mint will mint the full 500 Lunar S2 proof kilo coins even though they may not have received any (or just a few) orders? And then at the end of the year melt down and destroy all the proof kilo coins, COA's, and the beautiful custom kilo proof coin boxes of those remaining in stock (not sold) even if that means all 500 coins, COA's, and custom boxes???? That's really absurd and highly implausible....not to mention a waste of money and resources.


Does anyone else have a better notion or can anyone confirm House's bizarre assertion?
 
Hi Bullion Baron,

That thread explains nothing at all because we are not told if this applies to only bullion coins or not. It may, but there's no specificity at all so one is left with no clear impressions.

Also, it doesn't at all answer the assertion by House that the PM produces kilo proof coins with the COA's and the custom proof boxes only to destroy all of that (as many as don't sell including and up to 500) at the end of the year.

Don't you see how this makes no sense at all? And where is the evidence from the PM that this is exactly the way they conduct business? It makes no sense for them to do that with proof kilo coins (which come in custom boxes and with COA's).

It's a different story, and much more understandable, for common bullion coins which don't come with custom boxes and COA's.

I'm not buying that the Perth Mint is that stupid and wasteful.
 
Ok so let me understand correctly .....

There's a 2xxx year 1 kg coin with mintage yyy. Lets say for the purposes of this example we're talking about a 2008 proof mouse (first item in the list you linked) so the mintage is 500.

Are you saying there's a certificate accompanying said coin which has COA number of 530?

Or are you looking at the "sales" column of 137 and trying to relate that to a COA which is numbered 167 ie 30 more?

I just want to clarify what you are talking about because my understanding was the same as noted above by House and BB
 
Some of the coins they list in their online shop forever. For example they are still selling hundreds of older gilded lunar coins.
Actually some of them had very low numbers at some stage and suddenly the availability numbers increased massively.
So why should they keep hundreds of gilded and coloured lunar coins and destroy the few kilo proof coins? That doesn't make much sense to me either.
It seems much more likely, given their track record, that they reminted these coins.
For example, the usual suspect is still selling lots of mouse typesets. I saw some and they all have numbers way higher than the mintage they claim has sold. Remint or coincidence? I'd say remint!

On the other hand, the mint online store still has TONS of lunar gold proof coins from older years, particularly dragons. I doubt they will ever sell them all and if they are smart they should melt them. Currently distributors are selling them for way below issue price. Either distributors bought lots of them and are now trying to get rid of them, or the mint is trying to sell them at lower prices via their distributors while keeping the high prices on their website.
 
Hi XB,

Yes, I am looking at the actual sales numbers vs the stated COA number by a seller.

I just find it very hard to believe that the PM would produce 500 kilo proof coins with 500 COA's and the 500 custom kilo proof boxes in advance and then simply destroy all of that (for all that didn't sell) at the end of the year. Seems like a big waste of resources and time to me.

And wouldn't it be logical that the PM release in numerical order (based on the COA) the kilo proof coins upon sale? To not do that is illogical. In other words, someone can actually have a 2008 proof kilo mouse with a COA number that reads "499" or "500" even though only 137 were actually sold??

Am I the only one who thinks this is a terrible way to conduct sales of limited issue kilo proof coins? Is the PM doing such stupid things on purpose?
 
Ok so there's the issue. The coins and therefore the COAs are not necessarily released in numerical order.

Now you may consider that illogical but when they sell coins they sell a batch here and a batch there. So one dealer may get COA 1 and another COA 500

As long as your COA is less than mintage number it should be ok.

And I think you should apologize to House and BB.
 
Bullion Baron said:
They might be holding 50 in storage unsold so not unexpected that there might be higher COAs out in the wild than their sales numbers suggest.
Click to expand...

But then it wouldn't say "unavailable", right?

I think they make them in batches, say 100 at a time and they have then successive serial numbers. They are then selling random coins of each batch. So it should be possible that if they destroy the rest of a batch, there are numbers that are higher than the sales figures, but only up to the maximum if the produced batch.

For the kilo mouse, if they made 200 and sold 137, it is entirely possible that any number up to 200 is out there.
 
I apologize to House and BB for any comments I made that were seen as offensive. I did not intend for them to be taken that way.

I feel that many dealers, sellers, as well as the PM who proclaim the sales figures of numismatic coins such as the S2 silver kilo's are basically misinforming new collectors because they are giving the impression that 137, for example, is the final number of 2008 S2 mouse kilo proof coins that might be potentially available at some point to be purchased anywhere.

Now what I am hearing here is that 500 proof silver kilo mouse coins can be made available for sale at any time up until the end of 2019. This "sales" figure is extremely misleading. A much more sensible figure that the PM should have available instead of sales is final sales. This way newer collectors will know without any confusion what the final sales figure is instead of having no idea because sales is not interchangeable with final sales as eluded to by several members here on SS.

Time for me to stop buying PM coins and join many in disgust of PM misleading selling tactics.

As a comic book collector, any seller or comic producer that also used similar deceptive marketing as is done with PM numismatic coins would be out of business because deception is not tolerated in that field of collecting.
 
Likewise, no offence taken. I was asleep anyway :p

You have to remember that the PM is a business.
The presentation boxes, COA's etc cost mere cents to make and the silver content of the kilo coins that haven't been sold is better off being used elsewhere. Cashflow wise, it's better to melt it down and use it to produce Snake bullion where it's actively making them a profit and keeping the cash coming in. No point having that silver sitting around doing nothing. They keep the molds, dies etc so pretty easy to start production again.

It's probably more efficient for them to mint the 500 in one go than just a few hundred as they try and figure out the demand for these types of coins. If they mint 120, they'll miss out on the profit from the others they would have sold. Better to mint too many than not enough I would think.

The same question was asked not so long ago but can't find the thread, that's how I found out.

Re the gildeds- I think they may be reminting those too as BB suddenly have a good selection in stock. Given what has just happened with the kilo coins, quite plausible.
 
Thanks for the explanations House and Bullion Baron.

Okay, I suppose that's possible (or likely) that minting and producing all 500 proof coins and their custom boxes might be more cost effective than less mintage and production a couple or so times.

I was also very unclear on the "sales" term believing, based on how it is used by many dealers, sellers, and the PM itself, that for numismatic coins it meant final sales for that issue. Why the PM even lists "sales" before it will end mintage of that issue is not sensible and can be quite misleading. The PM ought to change that immediately for numis coins. Only when they will not release any more or have sold out should they publish final sales.


So, tell me if I have this right, today January 21, 2013 (I'm in the US), if a large coin and precious metals dealer wants to order 100 2008 1 kilo silver proof mouse coins, they can so long as the PM has not, as of today, already sold more than 400 of these proof coins? Do I have this right?
 
And let's say that in 2019, hypothetically, if silver spot crashed to $20 US per ounce (purely hypothetically), then the PM could sell any 2008 Lunar S2 1 kilo silver proof coins they haven't already sold for less than these were selling back in 2008?

They could do whatever they want, I understand that...it's just that I have an issue with their sales figure.....it should be only a final sales figure that they publish.
 
mmissinglink said:
So, tell me if I have this right, today January 21, 2013 (I'm in the US), if a large coin and precious metals dealer wants to order 100 2008 1 kilo silver proof mouse coins, they can so long as the PM has not, as of today, already sold more than 400 of these proof coins? Do I have this right?
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That is correct. They can mint upto their mintage limit for the next 6 years :/ My guess is that as g&s become more 'mainstream' there'll be a good possibility that all Lunars will be minted to their full numbers as there would be a healthy demand for them.
 
mmissinglink said:
And let's say that in 2019, hypothetically, if silver spot crashed to $20 US per ounce (purely hypothetically), then the PM could sell any 2008 Lunar S2 1 kilo silver proof coins they haven't already sold for less than these were selling back in 2008?

They could do whatever they want, I understand that...it's just that I have an issue with their sales figure.....it should be only a final sales figure that they publish.
Click to expand...

Yes. As with any bullion, if spot drops so too will their price. Keep in mind Lunars are bullion and aren't treated any different. For example, they sell a 1kg Gemstone Dragon for $2k and buy it back at half that as it's just bullion even though it's treated as a numi by some.

The figures they publish are 'for information only', a kind of guide. If they didn't publish them there'd be someone somewhere demanding that they do. The figures are quite transparent but you do have to go looking for the info and that's what seems to be irritating people. That and the fact they don't publicly state that they're reminting some Lunars. Makes it seem kind of surreptitious.
 
House said:
mmissinglink said:
And let's say that in 2019, hypothetically, if silver spot crashed to $20 US per ounce (purely hypothetically), then the PM could sell any 2008 Lunar S2 1 kilo silver proof coins they haven't already sold for less than these were selling back in 2008?

They could do whatever they want, I understand that...it's just that I have an issue with their sales figure.....it should be only a final sales figure that they publish.
Click to expand...

Yes. As with any bullion, if spot drops so too will their price. Keep in mind Lunars are bullion and aren't treated any different. For example, they sell a 1kg Gemstone Dragon for $2k and buy it back at half that as it's just bullion even though it's treated as a numi by some.

The figures they publish are 'for information only', a kind of guide. If they didn't publish them there'd be someone somewhere demanding that they do. The figures are quite transparent but you do have to go looking for the info and that's what seems to be irritating people. That and the fact they don't publicly state that they're reminting some Lunars. Makes it seem kind of surreptitious.
Click to expand...

Thanks for responding....

Okay, that's confusing what you say about the PM because the PM themself calls silver proof Lunar S2 coins "numismatic". How can they do that, sell them with numismatic premiums and then treat them like bullion on buy-back?

How do seasoned coin collectors view a coin such as a Lunar S2 1 kilo silver proof coin...as bullion or numismatic?

What would a couple of examples of recently released coins be that seasoned collectors consider numismatic? I know, there's no universal consensus on what exactly "numismatic" is but I'm asking you seasoned collectors here about your personal opinion.
 
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