Investing in Precious Metals in Australia

T

Torgny Persson

New Member
I realise that this might be the wrong section of the forum to post this message but feel free to move it to where you deem it to belong. Sorry for a very long first post but I hope that the venture discsussed below is something that would interest many people here and might also provide people interested in PM with an opportunity to work in the PM industry.

My name is Torgny Persson and I am CEO and founder of Swedish Liberty Silver AB (www.libertysilver.se) and owner of Estonian Liberty Silver O (www.libertysilver.ee) which are both bullion dealers. Liberty Silver is one of the largest bullion dealers in northern Europe and has been very successful in the course of the last years.

The reason that I am writing in this forum is that I am considering in investing in, purchasing or starting a bullion dealership in Australia. There seems to be limited competition in regards to PM dealers in Australia for markets of comparative size. It also seems that fewer Australians have discovered precious metals as an alternative asset group to more conventional investments since the housing market and share market so far has been performing relatively well in Australia in comparison to other countries. Would you agree?

How much publicity is there of precious metals as investment in Australia? Do mainstream media ever cover gold and silver as investment?

Liberty Silver is cooperating with Bullion International Ltd (www.bullionint.com) which arguably has the best and most comprehensive PM trading and administration system in the world.

I thus have the experience of running successful PM dealers in two different countries, experience from start-ups, experience from how to structure all routines in regards to PM dealership, an online trading/administration system that is second to none. I also have a network of suppliers that can be used as suppliers for an Australian PM dealer.

The precious metals dealers that I have found in Australia so far include the following:

Goldbullionaustralia.com.au relatively good prices for their own brands, no online shop

Ainsliebullion.com.au decent prices, full supplier including refined own brand. Many complaints about inferior customer service. Some online trading during business days but not 24/7. Not very modern homepage.

Abcbullion.com.au Good prices, own brand, full service, PM info on the homepage, online shop although rudimentary.

Citygoldbullion.com.au Shop in Adelaide, good reputation, fast delivery.

<removed> Decent homepage but reputation of long delivery times and questionable customer support. I'm curious of what people have to say about this company. According to the terms they want up to 13 weeks for delivery.

Bullionmark.com.au Nice homepage, good reputation, nice info section with charts etc. Slightly higher prices that other dealers.

Australiangualmetals.com.au New dealer. Small supply, no online shop

Bullionlist.com.au Wholesaler, no homepage

Auroraetluna.com Small dealer, good service

Bullionbourse.com Homepage is unstructured and not particularly modern

Kcj.com.au Well established with a retailer shop in Sydney. Neat homepage with online shop although not 24/7. Good prices.

Bullionmoney.com.au Seems to be a dealer who focuses on selling products on the homepage. Offers different storage options.

To summarize, many of the homepages are historical, have bugs, don't have 24/7 online sales, have inferior usability which makes be believe that there is room for a state of the art modern dealer with a sophisticated homepage/trading system/online shop. Would you agree? For those who have online shops, it seems that it is often 3-4 clicks to get to the online shop and the usability could be much improved. The one dealer that seems to stand out with a nice modern homepage, updated information/charts and good service seems to be bullionmark.com.au.

Have I missed any significant dealers?

Which are the largest dealers in terms of turnover and market share? Are annual reports public information in Australia? If so, where can I find them?

Which dealers are growing most quickly in your opinion?

Which dealers have the best reputation in this forum and can be deemed best in terms of order handling, information and customer service?

Which ones have online ordering 24/7. Bullionmark.com.au seems to be one. Anyone else?

Which logistics companies do the dealers usually use? UPS? Fedex? Local ones?

What is normal to pay for insurance for shipping? I've seen from online quotes that suppliers are charging 0.4-1 % of the value.

Do anyone know about what independent vaults there are in Australia? I have found guardianvaults.com with state of the art technology and good reputation in Melbourne (about to open in Sydney as well). There is also thereservevault.com.au in Brisbane which seems to be lacking in management and has some issues. In Sydney I have only found the Vault which doesn't seem to have deposit boxes though.

Products
Only .995/.999 gold and silver is free of VAT. From what I can understand, products like sovereigns and krugerrands be bought and sold under margin taxation of GST: Many dealers seem to have significantly higher prices for Krugerrands and sovereigns which I don't understand. Slightly prices would be understandable but since it is only 10% GST on margin, the difference between e.g. Krugerrands and Kangaroos/Maples should be small.

Many dealers seem to be specialized in either their own brand products or in certain other brands or niches. Not too many seem to offer a wide supply including international coins such as Krugerrands, Gold/Silver Maples, Gold/Silver Eagles, Gold/Silver Philharmonics, Gold/Silver Pandas, private minted silver rounds such as e.g. buffalos.

What is the general tendency in regards to whether people accept shipping or prefer to personally collect their bullion?

Regulations/Misc
Austrac seems to be a bit of a barrier. Have I understood correctly that the limit is $5000 in sales or cumulative sales before a dealer needs identification?

Are there any other permits necessary to start a PM dealership in Australia?

How is the security situation? Are there a lot of robberies targeting bullion and jewelry shops?

Contact me
If anyone in this forum has good knowledge about the precious metals market in Australia and/or have a small dealership that you would like to expand and/or would be interested in partnership/employment- Contact me at tp@libertysilver.se

If you have a good knowledge about the PM industry but don't want to work in it but could be of assistance for research etc. in the startup phase as a side job likewise contact me at tp@libertysilver.se
 
For me I don't really care about a the website looks. So long as its reliable. Most people on the this forum probably would share a similar opinion; at the end of the day its the bullion that we are after. Its when PM starts going more mainstream that aesthetics would play a major part. I have bought online from ABC Sydney, Bullion Bourse and Bullion Money; as far as I now orders can be placed 24/7. Currently I think bullion dealers in Australia are offering a satisfactory service to the current niche market.
 
must mention the best bullion dealers in Australia. Gold Stackers of cause. Setting the standards to high for others to reach.
(do i get an ounce? :P )
 
The reason that I am writing in this forum is that I am considering in investing in, purchasing or starting a bullion dealership in Australia. There seems to be limited competition in regards to PM dealers in Australia for markets of comparative size. It also seems that fewer Australians have discovered precious metals as an alternative asset group to more conventional investments since the housing market and share market so far has been performing relatively well in Australia in comparison to other countries. Would you agree?
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I've only known about stacking just this past month.
up until then i didn't have any idea how people invested in bullion.
I've been in the collectables scene for many years and am very supprised stacking, or accumulating bullion
doesn't get talked about in other collecting genres.
Yet in the past few weeks, your above comment has become so obvious to me it's almost a joke.
I almost cannot believe that no-one has grabbed it by the balls and it's clear as day, so i'm kinda happy that you see it too
and i'm really not going crazy.


To summarize, many of the homepages are historical, have bugs, don't have 24/7 online sales, have inferior usability which makes be believe that there is room for a state of the art modern dealer with a sophisticated homepage/trading system/online shop. Would you agree? For those who have online shops, it seems that it is often 3-4 clicks to get to the online shop and the usability could be much improved. The one dealer that seems to stand out with a nice modern homepage, updated information/charts and good service seems to be bullionmark.com.au
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Yep bingo there too, although the site you mention does have a problem, their 1oz panda's seem to be stuck on $43

I haven't heard of some of them places you listed but think your accurate on a couple.

it is funny though that with all your excellent research, you left out the one site that owns this forum, doesn't it?
so that part makes me weary as your smarter then that.
 
Yet in the past few weeks, your above comment has become so obvious to me it's almost a joke.
I almost cannot believe that no-one has grabbed it by the balls and it's clear as day, so i'm kinda happy that you see it too
and i'm really not going crazy.
Click to expand...

At the moment I think there is only so much bullion dealers can do to promote their product. In order to engage the mass market so to speak there really has to be a cultural change. The culture in Australia of buying everything on credit and paying later is totally different to what many of people on this website preach(wealth preservation through PM investment).
 
1: Buyers of lesser known bullion brands have experienced difficulties when trying to unload them. Easy to buy, not so easy to sell.
2: 24/7 shops whose prices do not genuinely reflect spot + fixed % lose all credibility - forever (for me anyway); viz. if you say you are 24/7, and the price crashed by 50% in the middle of the night, then your bullion shop had better remain open, selling at 50% of the price.
3: Prefer to personally pick up my bullion. However, offer a top-notch service, and insured mail delivery would be fine.

But what would really make your shop *great* for me, would be to offer a service similar to APMEX, selling both bullion & numismatics. This would make you stand out as a market leader in Australia, if you can offer similar prices with low % markups. Otherwise, honestly, you're just another bullion dealer trying to eke out a slice of the pie for yourself. Good luck, but you would not stand out as someone special. APMEX is special. You may have noticed that regular orders are placed to APMEX from people here, often bulk orders, and individual. I'm also going to be placing my first APMEX order soon, for some uncommon gold coins (not bullion). If you were here in Australia, with similar prices, I'd come straight to you instead.

4: As for Ainslie complaints, I've never had a single issue with them. I've heard about some of the those complaints... people get their bullion, and then because its not quite what they expected, they start bitching about it wanting a full refund etc. "It looks different to the picture on the internet... whine."


Added after initial post: And yes, I have checked out various coins dealers in Australia who offer some products similar to APMEX, and after seeing absolute highway robbery markups, I've given up on checking on the others; I don't have the time to waste. And if there is someone in Australia similar to APMEX, then why does APMEX gets so many Australian orders?

Added on 2nd editing: To be fair however, qualifying the above, the dealer known as "Aurora Et Luna" is in a class of his own, more closely approaching the APMEX type model than anyone else I am aware of in Australia. He has a wonderful range of items. (PS: I have no idea who the owner is, and have (to date) never brought anything from him, and have never emailed or spoken to him. Don't know him.)
 
I just realised what a madhouse it will be once the mania hits. No big long queues in the streets, but probably servers being overloaded as everyone tries to net retail purchase their hedges. (no-one said the last in were smart). I'll assume that many of SS will at that point be providing the dealers on here with product.

Have I missed any significant dealers?
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You did miss goldstackers.com.au.

p.s. and I imagine eBay will be completely unhinged considering the sort of bids that $50 silver was getting
 
Per capita Melbourne has the largest population of dealers to people in the world ,that was a couple of years ago
There have been a lot more dealers pop up in the last couple of years :D
The market is flooded with dealers & gold buyers .
Do your own research on here :D
 
Black_Sun said:
Added on 2nd editing: To be fair however, qualifying the above, the dealer known as "Aurora Et Luna" is in a class of his own, more closely approaching the APMEX type model than anyone else I am aware of in Australia. He has a wonderful range of items. (PS: I have no idea who the owner is, and have (to date) never brought anything from him, and have never emailed or spoken to him. Don't know him.)
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Then there is a gaping chasm in your life :P
 
mmm....shiney! said:
Black_Sun said:
Added on 2nd editing: To be fair however, qualifying the above, the dealer known as "Aurora Et Luna" is in a class of his own, more closely approaching the APMEX type model than anyone else I am aware of in Australia. He has a wonderful range of items. (PS: I have no idea who the owner is, and have (to date) never brought anything from him, and have never emailed or spoken to him. Don't know him.)
Click to expand...

Then there is a gaping chasm in your life :P
Click to expand...


Ha ha... let's see then... for starters, in Jan 2012 he offered a $700 discount on a gold koala, as the cardboard box had a slight tear. Wow! You too would have noted that amazing chinese gold wafer that he's holding onto and not yet selling. However, for that item, I think it would be better if he had a few to sell. I was nearly tempted to pull the trigger on a Mauritius 200 Rupee gold coin he was selling.

To date, the only purchase I've made here on SS was to buy some beautiful San Marino scudi fractional gold coins that Lucy43 sold. Not many people would sell stuff like this, but you can easily imagine Aurora Et Luna selling coins like this.
 
Meh to be honest as long as I get an ok price, decent delivery times and the site is trustworthy thats all that matters. For example Bullion bourse's design is fine to me, while not perfect it does the job. Silver is silver, pretty simple to buy. Most people do a fair bit of research before they buy anyway so not sure what kind of customer service a owner can offer thats going to really stand out.

But you could be onto something though, who am I to say...
 
After knowing this forum, I have been channelling my purchases through site sponsors and other trustworthy SS fellow stackers.

In addition, Group buys initiated by members in this forum allow to cater a small stacker like me to access more competitive prices rather than to deal with bullion clubs directly.
 
Black_Sun said:
........ APMEX is special. You may have noticed that regular orders are placed to APMEX from people here, often bulk orders, and individual. I'm also going to be placing my first APMEX order soon, for some uncommon gold coins (not bullion).
Click to expand...

Hey Black_Sun. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but your comment on APMEX begs a query. I've never bought from them. But I have bought LOTS of bulk orders via Gainesville. Do you have any first hand experience with both? Do you see one as being better than the other and if so, why? I've been very happy with Gainesville both in terms of delivery promptness, quality of product, and price. But perhaps I'm missing something comparative to APMEX. Serious question on my part as it's all about me, and I'll always shop where it's better for me! :) PM if it means you can be more blunt and honest. Thanks.
 
lucky luke said:
Black_Sun said:
........ APMEX is special. You may have noticed that regular orders are placed to APMEX from people here, often bulk orders, and individual. I'm also going to be placing my first APMEX order soon, for some uncommon gold coins (not bullion).
Click to expand...

Hey Black_Sun. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but your comment on APMEX begs a query. I've never bought from them. But I have bought LOTS of bulk orders via Gainesville. Do you have any first hand experience with both? Do you see one as being better than the other and if so, why? I've been very happy with Gainesville both in terms of delivery promptness, quality of product, and price. But perhaps I'm missing something comparative to APMEX. Serious question on my part as it's all about me, and I'll always shop where it's better for me! :) PM if it means you can be more blunt and honest. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I don't know much about Gainsville. I don't have any experience with either. I've only brought from 3 places, Perth Mint, Ainslies, and Lucy43. My references to APMEX are typifying a certain class of dealer, certainty they're not the only one. Just looked at Gainsville now, they have a smaller range of coins... for instance, where are their Scudi coins? They don't have any, but APMEX do.
 
Black_Sun said:
lucky luke said:
Black_Sun said:
........ APMEX is special. You may have noticed that regular orders are placed to APMEX from people here, often bulk orders, and individual. I'm also going to be placing my first APMEX order soon, for some uncommon gold coins (not bullion).
Click to expand...

Hey Black_Sun. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but your comment on APMEX begs a query. I've never bought from them. But I have bought LOTS of bulk orders via Gainesville. Do you have any first hand experience with both? Do you see one as being better than the other and if so, why? I've been very happy with Gainesville both in terms of delivery promptness, quality of product, and price. But perhaps I'm missing something comparative to APMEX. Serious question on my part as it's all about me, and I'll always shop where it's better for me! :) PM if it means you can be more blunt and honest. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I don't know much about Gainsville. I don't have any experience with either. I've only brought from 3 places, Perth Mint, Ainslies, and Lucy43. My references to APMEX are typifying a certain class of dealer, certainty they're not the only one. Just looked at Gainsville now, they have a smaller range of coins... for instance, where are their Scudi coins? They don't have any, but APMEX do.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the prices are generally better (or at least, I thought they were). Point taken on range of products.
 
Hey Torgny whats wrong with bullion bourse's website? I like it.
 
You will find that the Australia Embassy in Sweden will be more than happy to assist you.

Klarabergsviadukten 63, 8th Floor, Stockholm - Telephone: +46 (0)8 613 2900 - Fax: +46 (0)8 613 2982
 
Torgny Persson said:
To summarize, many of the homepages are historical, have bugs, don't have 24/7 online sales, have inferior usability which makes be believe that there is room for a state of the art modern dealer with a sophisticated homepage/trading system/online shop. Would you agree? For those who have online shops, it seems that it is often 3-4 clicks to get to the online shop and the usability could be much improved. The one dealer that seems to stand out with a nice modern homepage, updated information/charts and good service seems to be bullionmark.com.au.
Click to expand...

Personally I couldn't give a rats if the site i was buying from was sophisticated or not. I don't mind the bullion bourse site it's easy enough and straight forward. It's going to come down to price inc. of postage, not how modern your online shop appears.
 
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