Huge doubts cast over Coalition's 'cheaper' NBN alternative

[Dogmatix]

(for Big A.D.)

http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2012/11/16/3634499.htm

Huge doubts cast over Coalition's 'cheaper' NBN alternative

Of the many broadband forums in the world, NBN Realized, which ran in Sydney yesterday, may not be the most glamorous. It focuses on the actual building of the network and was attended by the people who are on the ground installing cables to the houses, over and under the streets along with the people who make the cables and networking infrastructure. While no one wanted to go on the record directly, there was consensus from key players in the room: building a Fibre to the Node (FTTN) infrastructure, in terms of raw construction costs, as promoted by the Coalition, is now unlikely to be a "cheaper" option than the current Fibre to the Premises plans.

(too much to paste in here)

Basically the article says that the 'nodes' in "fibre to the node", would cost heaps of money and cause a bureaucratic mess in managing them.

Not that anyone in the article is biased or anything like that...

 

[browski]

Between now and the election, the Coalition better find a policy that they can point to as a winner. Let's list the epic fails:

1. Opposition to the Carbon Price: Fail
2. Opposition to the MRRT: Fail (Looks like it was a fail for both sides due to the fact that it both did not hurt anybody because it didn't actually raise any money! Too funny)
3. Opposition to the NBN: Epic Fail
4. Opposition to the 2008 Stimulus: Fail
5. Opposition to Pokies reform: Fail. (I actually don't really know where the public is on this one.........but it smells like a fail.)
6. Opposition to Gay Marriage: Fail
7. Opposition to Education Spending: Fail
8. Opposition to NDIS: Epic fail
9. Opposition to Royal Commission into Child Abuse (Ok, the coalition actually officially support this, but you get the feeling that if in power, Tony would have avoided this one)
10. Opposition to reducing the Business Tax rate: Fail. (Commonly called "Cutting your nose to spite your face".)

So that leaves.............Refugees and a higher Paid Parental Leave offering.
And since the masses have no real idea as to what is important, then just a bit more refugee bashing should just be enough to get Tony into the Lodge. Go get 'em Tiger.

 

[Big A.D.]

Not that anyone in the article is biased or anything like that...

Sarcasm aside P), if you want a politically acceptable answer, don't ask an engineer. They're only good for telling you what the reality is.

This bit in particular caught my eye:

As one cabling specialist told us, maintenance has been dropping off significantly since the 90s and, while such practices aren't ubiquitous, overworked Telstra workers have focussed their maintenance operation on fixing things when they break rather than preventative measures. As such, when problems have been fixed - the symptom and not the cause has often been dealt with exclusively. An example given was that a line would be rotting due to 'moisture getting in' and so the line would be replaced but not the issue affecting the moisture. In the past three years all but essential maintenance to Telstra's copper PSTN network and Telstra and Optus' HFC networks has collapsed.

I can tell you that's true from personal experience. At the last house I lived at, the phone line would go dead when it rained heavily. I think it was the second or third time I called (on the mobile) to get a tech sent out and asked him why it kept happening.

"The cable pit has a leak and fills with water. Your line is on one the cables that gets wet but I can only try to insulate it better because the pit needs a complete rebuild".

 

[Shaddam IV]

Between now and the election, the Coalition better find a policy that they can point to as a winner. Let's list the epic fails:

1. Opposition to the Carbon Price: Fail
2. Opposition to the MRRT: Fail (Looks like it was a fail for both sides due to the fact that it both did not hurt anybody because it didn't actually raise any money! Too funny)
3. Opposition to the NBN: Epic Fail
4. Opposition to the 2008 Stimulus: Fail
5. Opposition to Pokies reform: Fail. (I actually don't really know where the public is on this one.........but it smells like a fail.)
6. Opposition to Gay Marriage: Fail
7. Opposition to Education Spending: Fail
8. Opposition to NDIS: Epic fail
9. Opposition to Royal Commission into Child Abuse (Ok, the coalition actually officially support this, but you get the feeling that if in power, Tony would have avoided this one)
10. Opposition to reducing the Business Tax rate: Fail. (Commonly called "Cutting your nose to spite your face".)

So that leaves.............Refugees and a higher Paid Parental Leave offering.
And since the masses have no real idea as to what is important, then just a bit more refugee bashing should just be enough to get Tony into the Lodge. Go get 'em Tiger.

They are not failures at all. The job of the opposition is to oppose poor or outright stupid policies. The opposition is not in government, ie: they don't have the numbers to prevent the government from doing what it wants. The opposition has in fact been very successful in bringing to light the abject stupidity and incompetence of the government on all 10 points, so they have in fact been very successful in their role as opposition and have in no way failed.

 

[browski]

Between now and the election, the Coalition better find a policy that they can point to as a winner. Let's list the epic fails:

1. Opposition to the Carbon Price: Fail
2. Opposition to the MRRT: Fail (Looks like it was a fail for both sides due to the fact that it both did not hurt anybody because it didn't actually raise any money! Too funny)
3. Opposition to the NBN: Epic Fail
4. Opposition to the 2008 Stimulus: Fail
5. Opposition to Pokies reform: Fail. (I actually don't really know where the public is on this one.........but it smells like a fail.)
6. Opposition to Gay Marriage: Fail
7. Opposition to Education Spending: Fail
8. Opposition to NDIS: Epic fail
9. Opposition to Royal Commission into Child Abuse (Ok, the coalition actually officially support this, but you get the feeling that if in power, Tony would have avoided this one)
10. Opposition to reducing the Business Tax rate: Fail. (Commonly called "Cutting your nose to spite your face".)

So that leaves.............Refugees and a higher Paid Parental Leave offering.
And since the masses have no real idea as to what is important, then just a bit more refugee bashing should just be enough to get Tony into the Lodge. Go get 'em Tiger.

They are not failures at all. The job of the opposition is to oppose poor or outright stupid policies. The opposition is not in government, ie: they don't have the numbers to prevent the government from doing what it wants. The opposition has in fact been very successful in bringing to light the abject stupidity and incompetence of the government on all 10 points, so they have in fact been very successful in their role as opposition and have in no way failed.

They are Fails, because they are positions the Coalition should have supported; especially points 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 and 10.

 

[Shaddam IV]

Between now and the election, the Coalition better find a policy that they can point to as a winner. Let's list the epic fails:

1. Opposition to the Carbon Price: Fail
2. Opposition to the MRRT: Fail (Looks like it was a fail for both sides due to the fact that it both did not hurt anybody because it didn't actually raise any money! Too funny)
3. Opposition to the NBN: Epic Fail
4. Opposition to the 2008 Stimulus: Fail
5. Opposition to Pokies reform: Fail. (I actually don't really know where the public is on this one.........but it smells like a fail.)
6. Opposition to Gay Marriage: Fail
7. Opposition to Education Spending: Fail
8. Opposition to NDIS: Epic fail
9. Opposition to Royal Commission into Child Abuse (Ok, the coalition actually officially support this, but you get the feeling that if in power, Tony would have avoided this one)
10. Opposition to reducing the Business Tax rate: Fail. (Commonly called "Cutting your nose to spite your face".)

So that leaves.............Refugees and a higher Paid Parental Leave offering.
And since the masses have no real idea as to what is important, then just a bit more refugee bashing should just be enough to get Tony into the Lodge. Go get 'em Tiger.

They are not failures at all. The job of the opposition is to oppose poor or outright stupid policies. The opposition is not in government, ie: they don't have the numbers to prevent the government from doing what it wants. The opposition has in fact been very successful in bringing to light the abject stupidity and incompetence of the government on all 10 points, so they have in fact been very successful in their role as opposition and have in no way failed.

They are Fails, because they are positions the Coalition should have supported; especially points 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 and 10.

Are you serious? Abbott called for a Royal Commission the day before Gillard. as for the others they are a matter of opinion. The NBN is signing up around 12 people per day according to the press. I would call that a fail. As for #6, the government opposed gay marriage as well. I do regard that as a disgraceful failure by both parties. Not defending the Libs, the bottom line really is that we have a shit, corrupt, utterly inept government that has a shit, less corrupt opposition across the chamber from them.

 

[errol43]

The NBN should have been rolled out in the Capital Cities first...People in th Cities are IT saavy...It is not as important to have super speeds in country areas.. Roll it out first where you get the quickest return on Capital.

Regards Errol 43

 

[AngloSaxon]

Between now and the election, the Coalition better find a policy that they can point to as a winner. Let's list the epic fails:

1. Opposition to the Carbon Price: Fail
2. Opposition to the MRRT: Fail (Looks like it was a fail for both sides due to the fact that it both did not hurt anybody because it didn't actually raise any money! Too funny)
3. Opposition to the NBN: Epic Fail
4. Opposition to the 2008 Stimulus: Fail
5. Opposition to Pokies reform: Fail. (I actually don't really know where the public is on this one.........but it smells like a fail.)
6. Opposition to Gay Marriage: Fail
7. Opposition to Education Spending: Fail
8. Opposition to NDIS: Epic fail
9. Opposition to Royal Commission into Child Abuse (Ok, the coalition actually officially support this, but you get the feeling that if in power, Tony would have avoided this one)
10. Opposition to reducing the Business Tax rate: Fail. (Commonly called "Cutting your nose to spite your face".)

So that leaves.............Refugees and a higher Paid Parental Leave offering.
And since the masses have no real idea as to what is important, then just a bit more refugee bashing should just be enough to get Tony into the Lodge. Go get 'em Tiger.

Allow a dissenting view:

1. Do you remember almost every industrial company in Australia laying off workers before the implementation of the tax so they could pay for it? From aluminium smelters to waste water processors. It was across the country and thats what I call a massive fail. Gillard then changed the legislation twice so that it now in 2014 or whenever is pegged to the failing EU system, AND is open to the massively fraudulent Chinese abuse of carbon credits.

2. Again, layoffs all over the country before it was implemented. Plus the tax tries to remove State rights (that of Royalties) and further centralises Federal control over both resources AND legislation over said resources. The fact it makes no money is just hilarious. Resources are State owned and the Feds should get their greedy hands off them.

3. I hope a future coalition govt sells it off to the free market where it belongs - it is not governments' responsibility. That's if in fact it even proves to be all it is advertised to be. The Fin Review Wednesday had an article that despite $30million of taxpayer funding on advertising to said taxpayers on the NBN, most taxpayers have no idea what the NBN does. What a waste of my, and your, money.

4. Stimulus = Inefficient government intervention in the economy creating waste and cronyism if not outright corruption. Eg the same dodgy Labor affiliated groups installing bad insulation on government money then going on to be employed as auditors and inspectors of the same insulation. How about the new school buildings centrally organised and constructed at 5x or more times higher than local quotes, then discovered to not meet fire or other safety standards and being unusable. The whole stimulus was designed to fund union contributions if not directly fund unions. Apart from the $900 Rudd cheques created purely out of inflation -which hurts everyone.

5. State issue - as per Residual power of the Constitution. Get the Feds out of it.

6. Marriage is a religious institution. If you look at the legal issues of marriage Government originally got involved to protect divorced women. It should devolve back to a religious issue (Contentious I know)

7. Another State issue - as per Residual power of the Constitution. The left takes the situation where Howard gave temporary Federal funding at a time of Federal surplus that would end if there was no Fed surplus - and treats that funding as if it deserves to be funded forever, regardless of unlawfulness in terms of the Constitution and that it will be funded on debt. Get the Feds out of it.

8. A worthwhile cause but Labor are good at promising things they have no way to pay for. Apart from debt. Should be a State issue as it's related to Health.

9. You've been rebutted above.

10. Lowering a tax by raising another tax is not a win. That is deception, and a fail.

Don't take my commentary personally, please.

 

[Dogmatix]

^ good comments there (except for #6 IMO, but i don't really care about that issue anyway)

 

[Big A.D.]

The NBN should have been rolled out in the Capital Cities first...People in th Cities are IT saavy...It is not as important to have super speeds in country areas.. Roll it out first where you get the quickest return on Capital.

Regards Errol 43

The roll-out was deliberately done from the outside inwards for several reasons: the people in regional areas and even on the outskirts of the major cities previously had very poor telecoms services and the network designers (not the politicians) decided that providing better services to non-metro areas should be made a priority.

The other main technical reason was that the builders wanted to practice and refine their processes away from existing functional infrastructure because learning how not to do something by knocking out half a CBD's worth of internet is worth avoiding where possible.

There is also the fact that the guy in charge of building it is a huge networking geek and came out of retirement especially so he could help build an A-grade telecommunications network and above everything else he wants to see the network that was designed by experts get completed - not a bastardized mish-mash. He's not necessarily after a quick return on capital and if they started building in the cities first and the Liberals canned the NBN half way through it then the cities would have awesome broadband and the regional areas would still be stuck on a RIM with 2x dial-up speed.

As the article says, they'll be ramped up to 6000 connections a day by next year and it will be hard for anyone to stop the roll-out with that much momentum behind it.

Making sure management doesn't f*** up your project is an important skill for an engineer to have and Mike Quigley is a very good engineer.

 

[bordsilver]

^ good comments there (except for #6 IMO, but i don't really care about that issue anyway)

W.r.t. 6. If there are the same legal rights wrt inheritances and taxes then the name is irrelevent and the name 'marriage' can continue in the traditional way and it is a contrived grievance.

 

[iceblue]

The NBN should have been rolled out in the Capital Cities first...People in th Cities are IT saavy...It is not as important to have super speeds in country areas.. Roll it out first where you get the quickest return on Capital.

Regards Errol 43

Most Rural areas are being by-passed, the main centers are getting it, but basically nothing will change down here, no nbn for us.

 

[Big A.D.]

The NBN should have been rolled out in the Capital Cities first...People in th Cities are IT saavy...It is not as important to have super speeds in country areas.. Roll it out first where you get the quickest return on Capital.

Regards Errol 43

Most Rural areas are being by-passed, the main centers are getting it, but basically nothing will change down here, no nbn for us.

From last week: Bass Coast, South, East and Central Gippsland set for fixed wireless 2013-2015

You might end up with fiber anyway, check your address here: http://www.nbnco.com.au/rollout/rollout-map.html

 

[browski]

Are you serious? Abbott called for a Royal Commission the day before Gillard. as for the others they are a matter of opinion. The NBN is signing up around 12 people per day according to the press. I would call that a fail. As for #6, the government opposed gay marriage as well. I do regard that as a disgraceful failure by both parties. Not defending the Libs, the bottom line really is that we have a shit, corrupt, utterly inept government that has a shit, less corrupt opposition across the chamber from them.

Yes, I'm serious. Do you even know the history of these issues, or do you just invent your own history to make yourself fell better?

Abbott had 11 years as a Government Minister and 3 years as opposition leader and he did nothing. Then when he heard that Gillard was about to announce a Royal Commission, he scurried out a statement saying he was in favour of this idea.
The Government did not oppose Gay Marriage. The ALP decided that it was a Conscience Vote issue, and voted that way. Abbott would not allow his members to vote on Conscience and mandated that they oppose the issue.
The Government is neither "Shit", nor are they Corrupt. Just because your football team is losing, no need to destroy the whole competition.

 

[bordsilver]

^ He said BOTH are sh*t and corrupt so I don't think "his" football team is losing because he disowns both of them. Doesn't change the simple fact that one of the three major teams on offer is far less evil and immoral overall compared to the other two.

 

[browski]

Between now and the election, the Coalition better find a policy that they can point to as a winner. Let's list the epic fails:

1. Opposition to the Carbon Price: Fail
2. Opposition to the MRRT: Fail (Looks like it was a fail for both sides due to the fact that it both did not hurt anybody because it didn't actually raise any money! Too funny)
3. Opposition to the NBN: Epic Fail
4. Opposition to the 2008 Stimulus: Fail
5. Opposition to Pokies reform: Fail. (I actually don't really know where the public is on this one.........but it smells like a fail.)
6. Opposition to Gay Marriage: Fail
7. Opposition to Education Spending: Fail
8. Opposition to NDIS: Epic fail
9. Opposition to Royal Commission into Child Abuse (Ok, the coalition actually officially support this, but you get the feeling that if in power, Tony would have avoided this one)
10. Opposition to reducing the Business Tax rate: Fail. (Commonly called "Cutting your nose to spite your face".)

So that leaves.............Refugees and a higher Paid Parental Leave offering.
And since the masses have no real idea as to what is important, then just a bit more refugee bashing should just be enough to get Tony into the Lodge. Go get 'em Tiger.

Allow a dissenting view:

1. Do you remember almost every industrial company in Australia laying off workers before the implementation of the tax so they could pay for it? From aluminium smelters to waste water processors. It was across the country and thats what I call a massive fail. Gillard then changed the legislation twice so that it now in 2014 or whenever is pegged to the failing EU system, AND is open to the massively fraudulent Chinese abuse of carbon credits.

2. Again, layoffs all over the country before it was implemented. Plus the tax tries to remove State rights (that of Royalties) and further centralises Federal control over both resources AND legislation over said resources. The fact it makes no money is just hilarious. Resources are State owned and the Feds should get their greedy hands off them.

3. I hope a future coalition govt sells it off to the free market where it belongs - it is not governments' responsibility. That's if in fact it even proves to be all it is advertised to be. The Fin Review Wednesday had an article that despite $30million of taxpayer funding on advertising to said taxpayers on the NBN, most taxpayers have no idea what the NBN does. What a waste of my, and your, money.

4. Stimulus = Inefficient government intervention in the economy creating waste and cronyism if not outright corruption. Eg the same dodgy Labor affiliated groups installing bad insulation on government money then going on to be employed as auditors and inspectors of the same insulation. How about the new school buildings centrally organised and constructed at 5x or more times higher than local quotes, then discovered to not meet fire or other safety standards and being unusable. The whole stimulus was designed to fund union contributions if not directly fund unions. Apart from the $900 Rudd cheques created purely out of inflation -which hurts everyone.

5. State issue - as per Residual power of the Constitution. Get the Feds out of it.

6. Marriage is a religious institution. If you look at the legal issues of marriage Government originally got involved to protect divorced women. It should devolve back to a religious issue (Contentious I know)

7. Another State issue - as per Residual power of the Constitution. The left takes the situation where Howard gave temporary Federal funding at a time of Federal surplus that would end if there was no Fed surplus - and treats that funding as if it deserves to be funded forever, regardless of unlawfulness in terms of the Constitution and that it will be funded on debt. Get the Feds out of it.

8. A worthwhile cause but Labor are good at promising things they have no way to pay for. Apart from debt. Should be a State issue as it's related to Health.

9. You've been rebutted above.

10. Lowering a tax by raising another tax is not a win. That is deception, and a fail.

Don't take my commentary personally, please.

Hi AngloSaxon, most of your dissenting view are spot on. Thanks for taking the time.
In Point 6. I actually think Gay Marriage should also be a state issue (perhaps even a Local Govt issue). But if it was going to be a federal issue, then it should have been a conscience vote.
In point 10, I cannot recall which tax was proposed to be raised? Wasn't the cut dependent upon the removal of some Govt grants to industry?
In Point 2, you write that "there were layoffs all over the country". I can't recall that event, and the admittedly "rubbery" employment stats do not support that argument. Certainly though, employment was never diminished in the mining states.

 

[bordsilver]

My interpretation was the linking of the business tax cuts with the MRRT.

 

[volrathy]

I know someone who is working for the company rolling out the NBN under labor and labor have stopped all fibre to home roll out and are intending to offer high speed wireless (240m/s) for the majority of people

 

[Lovey80]

Browski,

only a one eyed Labor voter that thinks he/she is impartial could have written post number 2.

1,2 and 4 are epic wins for opposing those issues. 2008 Stimulus>? Only an economic moron could ever support such a measure.

 

[Big A.D.]

I know someone who is working for the company rolling out the NBN under labor and labor have stopped all fibre to home roll out and are intending to offer high speed wireless (240m/s) for the majority of people

Sorry, but that isn't right.

Perhaps your friend has personally stopped working on fiber and has been moved on to a fixed wireless project, but there hasn't been any halt to the fiber roll-out. The contractors in the article actually talk about how they're picking up the pace in connecting fiber installations.

(The Liberal policy on the other hand is to halt fiber installations if they win office and install more fixed wireless.)