Huge divide between Spot and Physical

[Dynoman]

Im too busy flogging pet rocks to watch tv :lol:

Better to flog a pet rock than a dead horse they say !

Do they have eyes ? Do you dress them up in leather ?

 

[SilverMark]

Now once more for the dummies ..... there is a physical shortage of PM silver ...right? most dealers cant get perth mint silver ..right? They could have made a lot of money ...right ? so they are losing revenue ....right ? All you have to do is pick up the phone & talk to a dealer & ask how long they are waiting for PM products something i have done . I have spoken to 4 dealers & ALL have complained about PM & their delivery times & misallocation of products promising to deliver & not doing it .Get off your high horse & check what im saying look at aurora et luna site look at bullionbourse site look at ainslie site our & see if they have PM products in stock when usually they have plenty but there is none !!!!! you dont have to be a brain surgeon to work out they lost money & sure they will make more in the long run but that wasnt what i said in my post it was about the money the have lost whilst the conversion was taking place A simple observation that you have turned into a different can of worms from your failure to read my posts & turn it into another arguement .you remind me of my ex missus allways have to be right & have the last say .I admitted we were both talking out of our arses but you had to educate me some more because your a sook & couldnt just leave it at that .I will stand by my opinion that the time management & job schedule could have been handled better.You dont have to agree & i dont expect you to It was just my opinion . My observation on you being an employee was correct something i can tell by your posts i wasnt saying im a better person just noticing the different mindsets invovled in both positions.
Your narrow mindedness is astouding still saying my posts are BS I can see your point of view but oh no you must be right what a sook .I like to learn most days aswell but im afraid there isnt anything in your posts i can learn .Im not the one pretending to know everything you are with your need to be right ..Your not sure i understand capital expenditure hahahaha you get funnier by the day .Now once more for you my slow on the pickup engineer all i was saying is that it could have been handled better & they lost money in the months it is out of production & there is a long wait for PM products . Please take the time to stop crying & read this post for what it is .Now do you want to buy a pet rock ?.Oh man people like you make me laugh little cry babies waaa waaa waaa im right your wrong .

Your posts are becoming very childish renovator. I'm not even stirring you and you've blown a gasket. Never once did I say they were not losing revenue during this period, and that there was a shortage of their bars. In fact I said the same in that regard. I am well aware of the shortage of PM bars across all suppliers. Let it not be forgetten though that there is also an increase in demand currently while prices are low, which is making the shortage more prominent. Pre-upgrade they may not have even been able to meet the current demand anyway - who knows. You just can't seem to fathom that spending capital, temporarily reducing production capacity and taking short term losses in order to increase production capacity into the future and realise longer term profits is a perfectly sensible means of operating a business if it is properly planned and determined as being the best approach (and from what Bron is now saying may have been the only legitimate option in moving the business forward).

I wasn't talking out my arse, and me being an employee or a business owner has absolutely no relevance on what I am saying - it is my area of experience that does. You didn't just say they were losing money - you very directly incinuated that the people running the project made a total cock-up and I simply highlighted a number of factors that should have been considered before making such as statement. As I said previousely, the only position I have taken is that your opinion of how the PM management team are running their project was an illogical load of BS because you ignored many important factors and made unfounded conclusions. And given that you decided not to keep that opinion to yourself, I felt I had some responsibility to discredit it given that it is derogatory towards a reputable business.

My apparent similarities to your ex missus are again irrelevant and I don't care frankly. You can attack my character all you like - it does not phase me, there are no tears on my end - but I am making an effort not to go beyond the premise of your original statement. If you cannot learn anything from this, that is your loss, not mine. I have certainly learnt you are not worth my time.

 

[renovator]

hahahahaha nice work silvermark did i say something about the last word hahahahaha you are so easy baited like a child & hooked like a marlin .Yes ok you are right & i am wrong will you shut up now ? hahahaha you still trying to teach me things ? il just get the tissues for you il be right back :lol:

 

[1for1]

Went to KJC Coins today expecting to pick up a tube of 20 coins for around $780 aus...

Spot was just $32 in my lunch break today so i figured whilst around Wynard id check into KJC coins and pick up a tube of 20 to take advantage of the buying oppertunity we have been presented with.

After my last two purchases of 20 were online i figured id just walk into a shop to save on postage.

to my SHOCK i got quoted $820 for a tube of Koalas OR $60 each... they had lunar Mouse or Rabbit (i know WTF right?)

$820 / 20 = $41 each or $9.10 over spot per coin.

I only took in $800 so was quite happy to walk out empty handed.

I have heard other senior members on this forum say the Koalas ARE NOT limited in there mintage so apart form being pretty and $1 legal tender.. what exactly am i getting for $9.10 over spot or $29.10 if i choose to buy one or a few...

So although i am yet to receive my ordered rounds from Bullionbourse or Bullionmoney i would suggest these are much closer to spot and if ordering in bulk or (just one or two LOL) then ordering online seems to be the most cost effective way of purchasing silver if you are looking for 1 oz type silver. (i have chosen to no longer buy 1kg bars as i feel they will be harder to trade/sell when the time comes)

I stand by the title of this thread... "Huge divide between Spot and Physical"

Playing the paper game makes you a contributor to the false commodites prices we are currently under.. whilst its good for stacker... ultimatley we are seeing industry profit the most at these suppressed prices as they are able to stockpile silver for there applications now while its still available at super cheap prices.. who knows IF we will even be able to pull silver from the ground in 20 years...

Funny how the price drops nearly 40% yet i walk into coin shops like IS wright and they have not bought a single one ounce coin in days... hmmmmm funniest sounding sell off ive ever heard... so a sell off with no-one selling... Sure sounds like its the day paper traders...

 

[SilverMark]

Renovator, it certainly wasn't lost on me that you were baiting me to respond, and no doubt you would retort with the same again if I didn't highlight. Another series of childish attacks on my person in a pathetic attempt to discredit me and poorly attempt to save face. I guess your next post will be something about me having cooties - you clearly have me all figured out and it seems an (un)founded (il)logical connection.


EDIT: This though is purely to appeal to your humerous side, which I am beginning to enjoy immensely (and to prove that I do infact read every single word of your posts). I kindly present a disection of your post (I chose bold effect for my bits, hope you don't mind);

Now once more for the dummies .....[1st personal attack, good start. everything that follows will surely be quality though] there is a physical shortage of PM silver ...right? [bars*] most dealers cant get perth mint silver ..right? [yes, bars in particular] They could have made a lot of money ...right ? [right!] so they are losing revenue ....right ? [agreed] All you have to do is pick up the phone & talk to a dealer & ask how long they are waiting for PM products something i have done . [well done] I have spoken to 4 dealers & ALL have complained about PM & their delivery times & misallocation of products promising to deliver & not doing it [commendable effort, but irrelevant your honor, this does not mean the upgrade project and the person running it is a failure].Get off your high horse & check what im saying look at aurora et luna site look at bullionbourse site look at ainslie site our & see if they have PM products in stock when usually they have plenty but there is none !!!!! [Not fond of horses personally, but I was well aware of the shortage on these websites - again it adds nothing to the claim the project was mishandled and simply points out what was already obvious - that there is a shortage of PM bars] you dont have to be a brain surgeon to work out they lost money & sure they will make more in the long run but that wasnt what i said in my post it was about the money the have lost whilst the conversion was taking place [was starting to lose you now with the lack of puntuation. but you are correct, as I worked that out also and am not a brain surgeon as confirmed earlier. If I was though, I wouldn't own my own brain surgery, so I guess that would make me just another employee and a not so good surgeon. But I agree, they probably did lose money there which they will likely make up long term.] A simple observation that you have turned into a different can of worms from your failure to read my posts & turn it into another arguement .[now this is where you've really gone wrong, see I have clearly been reading all your posts and your original one stated "...who was the bright spark that decided to take the production line out what an idiot" followed up by "the guy is a failure to knock out a profit making line for months is an epic fail !!!!". Same can of worms infact, as I reasoned that this was an outrageous statement due to XX reasons that need to be considered when assessing the quality of the management decisions you are refering to, and of which you knew nothing about ] you remind me of my ex missus allways have to be right & have the last say. [noted, thank you for another kind compliment, im sure she is lovely] I admitted we were both talking out of our arses[Thanks for taking this liberty for me, but I am not talking out my arse and did not present an opinion on the decisions made by the PM - merely stating what factors would contribute to such decisions] but you had to educate me some more because your a sook & couldnt just leave it at that [lost count which number this cheap insult was btw, your so good at them. keep it up!].I will stand by my opinion that the time management & job schedule could have been handled better.[that wasnt your original opinion, just your newly formulated opinion after a back peddle so your not really standing by it at all] You dont have to agree & i dont expect you to It was just my opinion Another winner, I clearly don't agree and thankful it is your opinion and not mine]. My observation on you being an employee was correct something [good guess, got some stats on the ratio of employees to business owners. must have got good odds on that one] i can tell by your posts i wasnt saying im a better person just noticing the different mindsets invovled in both positions. [single, best, statement you have made]
Your narrow mindedness is astouding still saying my posts are BS I can see your point of view but oh no you must be right what a sook [I was opening up your mind, not narrowing mine. nice insult to close it out though]. I like to learn most days aswell but im afraid there isnt anything in your posts i can learn [can't teach an old dog new tricks ey'. Again, thats your decision, doesnt worry me. maybe this isnt the most suitable learning atmosphere for your personality type]. Im not the one pretending to know everything you are with your need to be right ..[again, I didnt put forward an opinion and this is is not about being right, it was about derogatory statements with no backing and highlighting why the statement is unfounded] Your not sure i understand capital expenditure hahahaha you get funnier by the day [No I am not sure, but if you forced me to make a call I would lean towards a lack of fundamental understanding from the evidence presented - "feasibility studies", "life cycle analysis", "change managment" and "planning?" dont seem to be concepts that resonate when i discuss with you. I am glad you think I am funny, but I dont think you are really being truthful to me and I sense sarcism. I don't believe you find any of this as humorous as I do - surely you wouldn't have to type "hahahaha" all the time to convince me if you really did]. Now once more for you my slow on the pickup engineer all i was saying is that it could have been handled better & they lost money in the months it is out of production & there is a long wait for PM products .[And there, you nailed it, my friends and colleagues call me "slow on the pickup engineer" ALLLLL the time! so uncanny! In truth it is annoying though] Please take the time to stop crying & read this post for what it is .[read it in full as with the rest but had trouble pushing through the tears, and in return I have now I have disected it for your pleasure!]Now do you want to [done and done]

dont worry renovator, Im heading off on holidays now. hope the business can hold up without this regular employee. talk on the other side keep it real

 

[SilverMark]

I have heard other senior members on this forum say the Koalas ARE NOT limited in there mintage so apart form being pretty and $1 legal tender.. what exactly am i getting for $9.10 over spot or $29.10 if i choose to buy one or a few...

Nothing mate, you made a great decision to walk away

Apologies for sidetracking your thread btw.

 

[RetardedMonkey]

I have heard other senior members on this forum say the Koalas ARE NOT limited in there mintage so apart form being pretty and $1 legal tender.. what exactly am i getting for $9.10 over spot or $29.10 if i choose to buy one or a few...

I bought my Koala's when $6ish over the spot price. Seemed reasonable.

Obviously you're paying the premium because it's a minted coin and not just a chunk of silver.

But I would agree that $9+ is a bit excessive...

 

[1for1]

I have heard other senior members on this forum say the Koalas ARE NOT limited in there mintage so apart form being pretty and $1 legal tender.. what exactly am i getting for $9.10 over spot or $29.10 if i choose to buy one or a few...

I bought my Koala's when $6ish over the spot price. Seemed reasonable.

Obviously you're paying the premium because it's a minted coin and not just a chunk of silver.

But I would agree that $9+ is a bit excessive...

Hi, thanks for the post.. i do accept a premium for a beautiful coin and come well packaged etc..

I have thought long and hard about the motivation behind Perth Mint's strategy of producing limited Edition high quality limited quantity product.. Largely i have come to the conclusion that its a dis-incentive to purchase (for a consumer).. the long shot is perth mint sell less silver for more...

I actually believe Perth Mint wants to:

1. Sell you less physical silver,
2. Make you wait longer than you would otherwise for physical silver
3. Make you pay considerable premiums over spot for your physical silver.
4. Create a divide between spot and physical so as to intice people into there UNALLOCATED BULLION STORAGE and offer this as a clear selling point (in a galaxy far.. far.. away)

If this was not the case why wouldnt they produce cheaper strikes such as a buffalo to satsify that LARGE market.. i do belive this is the large market and there numismatics stuff is HIGHLY NICHE..

I actually think the whole silver industry in Australia but cheifly through the Perth Mint deliberatley have tried to eliminate the supply side for cheap bullion and instead spin it into a totally different market of collectables... this would effectively limit the demand as the premiums deter heavy physical investment and instead make there unallocated storage more favourable..

I see the overall game plan and dont blame them... hey i love the Perth Mint product .. i just see the greater plan of 2 tier silver offerings.. and the clear DISINCENTIVES they put out there in a cartel-esque manner to choke physical demand and steer the sheep to the benefits of paper games.

Rightly Skepical or a Critical thinker barking down the wrong tree?

1for1

 

[goldpelican]

1for1,

Somewhat insightful comments there.

The Perth Mint is made up of several divisions - as I understand it, Minting seem to make their money cranking out the high quality coins. Then there's Treasury, Depository, Refining... all presumably different P/L centres with their own budgets & financial targets.

Entirely possible that the Minting division doesn't want to undermine their "prestige" status as a minter of high quality coins by banging out millions of lower grade bullion rounds or coins.... which is a shame, as I'm sure if they ran the numbers they'd make more money by selling more for less. Just look at the "corporate" website - despite being the corporate site for the entire Mint, it's essentially an eCommerce site for numismatic purchases from Minting.

I've approached the mint (as have others) with enquiries to producing low-cost minted bars - the standard response you get back is $35/oz over spot fabrication quotes for one-sided proof medallions. Not even listening to what direct enquiry potential wholesale customers are asking, let alone the wider market.

So for the Silver Stackers branded bars that are coming shortly, I've gone offshore.

I know you (and I) are not the only people who wish they would bring more minted bullion products to market, but in the absence of that, you'll continue to see offshore-sourced product coming into Australia to fill the gap that our "national" precious metals mint won't meet.

 

[1for1]

1for1,

Somewhat insightful comments there.

The Perth Mint is made up of several divisions - as I understand it, Minting seem to make their money cranking out the high quality coins. Then there's Treasury, Depository, Refining... all presumably different P/L centres with their own budgets & financial targets.

Entirely possible that the Minting division doesn't want to undermine their "prestige" status as a minter of high quality coins by banging out millions of lower grade bullion rounds or coins.... which is a shame, as I'm sure if they ran the numbers they'd make more money by selling more for less. Just look at the "corporate" website - despite being the corporate site for the entire Mint, it's essentially an eCommerce site for numismatic purchases from Minting.

I've approached the mint (as have others) with enquiries to producing low-cost minted bars - the standard response you get back is $35/oz over spot fabrication quotes for one-sided proof medallions. Not even listening to what direct enquiry potential wholesale customers are asking, let alone the wider market.

So for the Silver Stackers branded bars that are coming shortly, I've gone offshore.

I know you (and I) are not the only people who wish they would bring more minted bullion products to market, but in the absence of that, you'll continue to see offshore-sourced product coming into Australia to fill the gap that our "national" precious metals mint won't meet.

Hi goldpelican, (Ive never seen your Pelican coin you have as your avatar? What is this?) exactly yes... given they are not producing EXACTLY what the market demands we are having to look elsewhere to fill this vortex in the market. Do you mind me asking what coins you have commissioned to have produced?.. i dont think i was around when this went down as im new to this forum. I jumped the boat from the Kitco Silver Forum.

I can see what Perth Mint does and am happy we can buy cheaper coins through Bullionbourse but get the feeling there is more to Perth Mint not producing "no frills" business rounds than simply to maintain there rep for prestige coins but accept you are correct in this observation.

I too, have shopped overseas but after the last customs battle ive hung up those gloves .. really becasue Bullionbourse and Bullionmoney (online stores) and IS Wright can satisfy my demands so i guess i am happy enough.

In the case of today though.. $820 for 20 Koalas in a shop that claims best prices was rather dissapointing.. i would rather support the LCS and as a bonus save on postage and have the bullion instantly.. oh well guess ill order some more stuff online within Australia (just happy i joined this forum and got some excellent information just in time for the pullback.)

Information is KING.

1for 1

 

[goldpelican]

LCS... you're not a diver by any chance are you?

 

[Big A.D.]

Local Coin Shop?

 

[1for1]

Local Coin Shop?

haha.. yes Local Coin Shop

The Kitco Forum always use that so i picked it up.. its a good abbreviation.

 

[Aurora et luna]

Guys, don't sweat it!
I have 1000's of ounces arriving by mid June so I wouldn't worry too much about any serious shortages. Spreads should come down once dealers begin flooding the market with product so all you guys asking for top premiums better make hay while you can.
However there's not going to be a lot of variety as the PM continues to give you Buckley choice. It will either be 1oz Koalas or kilo coins.
I underestimated this recent rush and didn't order enough to meet demand so all of this month's supply has already been pre-sold.
I really dislike taking orders and making people wait weeks for delivery but if the Perth mint and other suppliers continue being tardy, I am afraid that's the direction my business is headed in the near future.
Having to shut up shop for weeks at a time until you can replenish your inventory is not a viable or practical business model.

 

[goldpelican]

Local Coin Shop?

haha.. yes Local Coin Shop

The Kitco Forum always use that so i picked it up.. its a good abbreviation.

Ah. Used to see that term 10 years ago as "LDS" to refer to Local Dive Shop - was wondering if LCS or LDS came first.

 

[thatguy]

...Rightly Skepical or a Critical thinker barking down the wrong tree?
1for1

basically they are a business trying to make the most money out of their customers/stock/equipment and time

 

[1for1]

Local Coin Shop?

haha.. yes Local Coin Shop

The Kitco Forum always use that so i picked it up.. its a good abbreviation.

Ah. Used to see that term 10 years ago as "LDS" to refer to Local Dive Shop - was wondering if LCS or LDS came first.

Hi, the thought of Diving petrifies me although id love to dive great barrier reef ... that place looks unreal from the footage i have seen.

I just borrowed the term LCS from the Kitco Forum as its common to discuss coin shops in a silver forum it makes sense we abbreviate the term... guess its only useful if we all understand it but thats the way of the world. My LCS is really IS Wright but the term was being used loosely... i guess in america they have more coin/bullion stores than we do here.

 

[1for1]

I have heard other senior members on this forum say the Koalas ARE NOT limited in there mintage so apart form being pretty and $1 legal tender.. what exactly am i getting for $9.10 over spot or $29.10 if i choose to buy one or a few...

Nothing mate, you made a great decision to walk away

Apologies for sidetracking your thread btw.

thanks appreciate you confirming my decision. Last time i felt as though i was overpaying i got 20 rounds of kookaburras at $37.50 each and one month later spot was $45 us...

I guess the complaining i do about the extra few bucks over spot is a bit whiney but i suspect Perth Mint of Differentianing there bullion storage from there physical sales so tend to think they have a clear plan and motive for not selling cheaper lesser grade bullion as there NO 1 reason for doing so... Pelican's above post does make sense and ill accept that is a contributing factor and a great way for the Perth PR to avoid further discussing the matter. Facts are Perth Mint has its own business model and we all want it to stay in business. Im just not so fussed on the unallocated bullion storage which up until last week had no fees to store your silver (smoking gun much?)

 

[1for1]

...Rightly Skepical or a Critical thinker barking down the wrong tree?
1for1

basically they are a business trying to make the most money out of their customers/stock/equipment and time

Hi,

Sure i get that a private enterprises primary aim is profit maximisation, i dispute Perth Mint's current model is doing this to its utmost effiency.. their current model, from how i dissect it seems to be focused on producing high grade numismatic coins with huge premiums to make there unallocated storage service at spot seem that much more inticing

This is just another reason why i have my doubts about giving over the storage of YOUR assets to a 3rd party.

Why are they so interested in creating this DIVIDE (i say they do this quite intentionally), my rationale is that they can either leverage the allocation and have multiple allocations per unit, or that there is a supply shortage and its not possible to produce more as there minting processes either dont allow for it or they are unable to cope with a scenerio whereby they sold physical on the local market as say $1-2 over spot.

given the waiting periods already on the premium 100% over spot stuff id say its the blanks that are causing the delay (or lack thereof)

Perth Mint wont produce cheap silver bullion cos it will directly compete with there paper trades, one is a license to print money, the other is combersome and involves sourcing silver, refining, minting, supplying etc... plus they are operating at would id consider capacity... in the short term they will drag supply intenionally or not delays will make people less reluctant to purchase.

Smile its Discount silver time again!

1for1

 

[Guest]

In real terms, the price of silver is what you pay to hold it in your grubby hands.

In the foreseeable future, the paper silver price will be irrelevant in working out how much you will have to pay to buy physical silver.