Has the Perth Mint ruined the Lunar Coin Market

Not sure about having any foresight and far from being an expert on anything concerning bullion. Every time i went to a coin shop the amount of b.s. wafting from the dealers about coins that had premiums was hard to stomach. I'm wary of anybody who talks with authority and certainty about value of anything in the future. There seemed less b.s surrounding buying bars and easier to get. Purchases were kept simple- RCM mint bars, some kitco and few engelhard. Mostly 10oz. Once again really a less hassle sized bar. Not the sexiest choice as opposed to Perth Mint and more popular choices( which remind me of clothing with brand names) but sometimes the less sexy choice winds being giving more love and less hassle long term:cool:

As long as its .999 its all good for me. Wasn't valuing my time as much as putting a premium on my sanity.
 
Don't like the current policies, but I will 2014 horses if the premiums are low. Even at 500k the lunar mintage is relatively small. Design change each year, quality minting and being part of sets are winners for me. $10 premium equal adios. But $4-6 premium equal come to daddy. PM crapped in their nest by minting privvy coins. Dealers crapped in their nest by gouging the early dragon buyers.

I have no faith in the PM and that is why I predicted in early 2011 that the PM would do a minimum 500k dragons. I don't trust them, but I like horses and will still buy 2014 lunars if the premiums are reasonable. I passed on the dragon frenzy, so my sets are broken. So, after the horses, back to ASEs.
 
"sometimes the less sexy choice winds being giving more love and less hassle long term"

Re: Thats true. I'm not getting sucked into lunar coins anymore. Cost too much and too much hassle. Well said.
 
I will allways buy lunars if they are acceptable prices, IMHO 20% premium I wouldn't mind paying anything higher and now you are heading into true numi territory, which lunars are not just fancy bullion
 
hiho said:
case in point, when series II dragon released these were fetching upwards of $90, now cant fetch $60'
http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-34069-for-sale-series-2-2009-1oz-lunar-ox-roll.html
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I am new to coin collecting / bullion stacking and many weeks ago I was telling people that the S2 dragon was going to fall like a cast iron anchor. That particular coin is artificially (very) high and besides it's an ugly dragon design so the appeal is based on marketing hype primarily.

I think the S2 series will do well overall in spite of a poor Perth Mint decision or two. The dips and lulls in the interest level will pass and the excitement will pick up better than before I believe. The interest is not merely affected by the recent Perth Mint controversy, but also by the current fluctuations in metals prices as well as the timing right now as we see 2012 coming to an end.

I still believe that by the end of 2019 and beyond, the 2008 Mouse will be one of the most sought after coins because of reasons I've mentioned in another thread in this forum. I like the Tiger, Ox, and Rabbit too...I just think we need to not get overworked by the current lull as much as we need to not be taken in by artificial market jolts like that which we saw with the 2012 ugly dragon.
 
The PM has made a lot of mistakes lately:

1. Remining kooks after 20 years have passed. And yes, I intended the word remining.

2. Privy coins to get around the mintage limits. Technically, they did not break the law, but they did break customer trust. If they were going to release privy coins, that fact should have been announced before the first sale of the regular 1oz coin. To mint privy coins for a regular coin that customers have just been price gouged is at best extreme indifference to a loyal customer base. If the PM wants to release privy coins, how about designing a new coin or limiting the privy to a coin size that is not limited mintage? How many unique animals exist in Australia? How about using a little imagination PM and not taking the lazy route to sell some more silver.

3. Repackaging products to evade previously listed limited issue amounts. No excuse for this and again this example shows extreme indifference to customer base for a few extra bucks.

Fortunately for me, I avoided the dragon frenzy and I don't buy any PM numismatic coins. Even though I didn't suffer any monetary loss, it still ticked me off to see others taken advantage of. The person who has been making these decisions for the PM should be replaced and someone who has some common sense should take their place.
 
The Dragon isn't ugly. :P It's a fantastic coin. :D

All the coloured coins are magnificent too; the only short fall, was the release price, they were far too expensive and too many.

I just wish the design on the silver coins was similar to the gold.
Having said that, the 1 oz bullion Gold Dragon is demanding very good premiums and the 1/10 oz Gold Proof is getting close to being sold-out (40 remaining).

http://www.perthmint.com.au/catalog...gon-gold-proof-coin-issue.aspx?ProductID=2816

imo the 5 oz Silver proof is the best coin Perth have released in Series 2 - Expensive but a fabulous coin for collectors. :cool:

http://www.perthmint.com.au/catalog...year-of-the-dragon-5oz-silver-proof-coin.aspx

5 oz lunars are cool :cool: :)

H

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5t69IyTziQ[/youtube]
 
dccpa said:
The PM has made a lot of mistakes lately:

1. Remining kooks after 20 years have passed. And yes, I intended the word remining.

2. Privy coins to get around the mintage limits. Technically, they did not break the law, but they did break customer trust. If they were going to release privy coins, that fact should have been announced before the first sale of the regular 1oz coin. To mint privy coins for a regular coin that customers have just been price gouged is at best extreme indifference to a loyal customer base. If the PM wants to release privy coins, how about designing a new coin or limiting the privy to a coin size that is not limited mintage? How many unique animals exist in Australia? How about using a little imagination PM and not taking the lazy route to sell some more silver.

3. Repackaging products to evade previously listed limited issue amounts. No excuse for this and again this example shows extreme indifference to customer base for a few extra bucks.

Fortunately for me, I avoided the dragon frenzy and I don't buy any PM numismatic coins. Even though I didn't suffer any monetary loss, it still ticked me off to see others taken advantage of. The person who has been making these decisions for the PM should be replaced and someone who has some common sense should take their place.
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All great points....I agree with these PM criticisms.
 
IMO its all a cycle.

The only way that I can see the perth mint destroying the true lunar series , is if they break their promise and re-mint previous year lunars - all sizes to their full mintage figures similar to the kooks ( believe this cant happen....but no guarantees )

As we have seen (based on mintage sales), both series suffered at certain dull periods during their release, only to be stimulated mainly thanks to the horse and dragon and I believe that same hype will re-occur with series 3.

Although, collectors come and go......the next generation of collectors will start collecting series 3, only to be bitten by the silver bug and want series 1 and 2. IMO This is the right time to be selling complete series.

Like any investment there is a right and wrong time to sell.......IMO if using series one as an indicator as to when the series will be
re-stimulated , next years release of the horse could be another one of those times.

As per the heading "Has the Perth Mint ruined the Lunar Coin Market".............Nah !

Has the Perth Mint upset a lot of existing collectors.....especially with the 2oz proof release .....Yeh !

Will the Perth Mint lose any sleep over it..... Nah ! .....Why, as previously stated.....collectors come and go.

Agree that some of the Dragon releases were an attempt by the Perth Mint to milk the market.......but with the release of the snake (so far) , it appears bullion and proof releases are back on track with earlier year releases.
 
Bullion Baron said:
Holdfast said:
Privy coins, don't get around mintage limits; Perth have been minting privy coins since 1992.
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The privy increased the number of 1oz bullion dragons by 66% (even though they are technically a different coin). AFAIK there isn't publicly available mintage numbers for the older privy Kookaburra's, but I suspect the numbers minted wouldn't come close to the level of dilution that the privy dragon caused (?). Furthermore, many of the Kookaburra privy coins were released as numismatics with certificate & presentation case and I would assume sold for a higher premium than the bullion Kookaburra coins (I would be surprised to hear if any Privy Kookaburras were sold in rolls as bullion coins?).

If Perth Mint had released the Privy dragon as a 10,000 mintage limited version in presentation case, with certificate for $107 then I think you would have struggled to find someone opposed to their release.
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Two dragon coins???? Both are fabulous! :)

There's no dilution, that's like saying the 1/2, 2, 5, 10 and kilo bullion coins with the same reverse have diluted the 300,000 mintage.
What has been diluted is people's pockets because they pre-ordered very expensive Dragons and when spot dropped off the cliff they were and still are out of pocket so they need to blame. :P :)

Na - Two separate mintages (300,000 and 200,000) and two separate designs.

The Privy dragon doesn't have the fire-ball but instead has a lion privy mark.

If I look at the images below, I can quite easily work-out which is the privy and which is not.

Having said that, you may have difficulty guessing what size coin the no-privy coin is. :D

LunarDragonPrivyIssue15_zpsffbaec63.jpg

half12510kilodragon_zps57aced76.jpg

Source:
 
Bullion Baron said:
If Perth Mint had released the Privy dragon as a 10,000 mintage limited version in presentation case, with certificate for $107 then I think you would have struggled to find someone opposed to their release.
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Exactly! Instead, they saw dollar signs & flooded the lunar market with more bullion coins than they said they would... Credibility down the drain.
 
The Kookaburra Privy coins usually had a 5,000 mintage during the year they were struck. A far cry from the 200,000 dragon privy.

In short, has the Perth Mint ruined the Lunar coin market? No.

Has the Perth Mint depreciated and damaged the Lunar coin market? Yes.
 
Thanks to everyone for adding to this thread. It's nice to read an intelligent argument.
 
No worries BB, thanks for the discussion.

I do think Perth, should include "all" the bullion coins, they intend to mint, when they release their anual Bullion Metals Program.

Good points BB.

H
 
i used to buy 20 over PM silver dragon... this year i only bought 1 bu and 1 proof... i also stay out of PM special release most of the time these days... there's only so much milk in a old cow like mi... :p
 
Holdfast said:
Here's a few figures for the Dragon (300,000 mintage Sold-out) vs Lion Privy (200,000 mintage Sold-out) .

The sales are from ebay completed listings and have been copied as they appear, by the date sold.

H


http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f199/HoldfastOrganicGardening/1ozDragon_zpsa5ba6586.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f199/HoldfastOrganicGardening/PrivyLion_zpsfa5e65f8.jpg

3 Month Spot
http://www.perthmintbullion.com/han...566752894&currencyId=1&timePeriod=ThreeMonths
http://www.perthmintbullion.com/au/Buy-Silver-Bars/All-Silver-Bars.aspx

Prices are in AUD
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f199/HoldfastOrganicGardening/ebaysales_zps8c056c00.jpg
Click to expand...

OUt of interest, how are you collecting this eBay data? Is there an RSS feed or something?
 
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