GSR swaps within smsf

F

Fykus

Member
Silver Stacker
Was just wondering, how do you do gold silver ratio swaps within your smsf?
I know you could do it with unallocated and or with physical, but when you do it how do you account for it within your super records? Do you make a note saying you swapped x silver worth $x for x gold worth $x? When you do this does it trigger some sort of capital gains event? Is it even allowed in your smsf?

If anybody knows itd be much appreciated. Have been thinking about this lately as a way to eventually increase the size of my smsf stack outside of buying more pm's (which is a given anyway). Would be nice to know its possible to do for next time the ratio is favourable.

Cheers
 
Dirtbikepilot said:
I would imagine you just sell one and by the other.
Click to expand...

its that simple, your SMSF is an account, all transactions are to be recorded and concise
 
but wouldnt doing that cause a capital gains event? wouldnt it be easier to just outright trade one for the other so your not paying tax on the transaction?
 
Fykus said:
but wouldnt doing that cause a capital gains event? wouldnt it be easier to just outright trade one for the other so your not paying tax on the transaction?
Click to expand...

yes it would create a capital gain or loss event, but after 1 year CGT is reduced and Super tax is 15% normally anyway. Yes it would be easier but illegal sorry :(
 
Fykus said:
what if your holding it in unallocated? would it still be illegal?
Click to expand...

I doubt any unallocated fund would do a straight swap without two transactions taking place
 
It's not illegal to do one swap for the other - but it also won't stop the capital gains event. For tax purposes it's considered to be done at the "current price" at that time - whether cash has changed hands or not.

malachii
 
thanks for clearing up my questions everybody, much appreciated.

So im guessing that if you did it you would record the price of gold and silver at the time for tax purposes so that you can pay the tax on it at the end of the year?
 
Sorry hiho - misunderstood you.

Fykus - yes - if it's a straight swap the spot price would provide a suitable ratio.

malachii
 
Would the ATO consider Spot price reasonable market value for the exchange?

REDBACK
 
Without putting words in the ATO's mouth - If you told them that was what the exchange was at, they would most likely accept it for things like bars etc. If you started trying it with lunar coins etc (and you got someone who knew a bit about PMs - yes a few in there do!) - then the chances are they would ask you to provide evidence as to why they should accept this value.

As with any tax issue in Australia -with our self reporting system - you can say and do whatever you like. You just have to be able to justify it if you are challenged.

malachii
 
Basically two transactions - a disposal and acquisition. Capital gains or losses may be realised.

A "swap" implies barter - which is treated the same. Sale and purchase with a fair market value assigned.
 
Sale/Purchase in the SMSF is not the issue..it's the documentation that's important.

As all SMSF are audited you must have a very clear paper trail of invoices that match what appears in your bank account.

So if you swap I suggest you actually draw /transfer funds in the SMSF that marry with the intent of the swap and that matches what appears on the SMSF General bank account.

I personally would not just use a note of the swap.

In essence any swap needs to be broken down to a sale and purchase ( based on market value at the time) from an accounting point of view in the SMSF.
 
old thread i know, but this came up when i was searching for a similar topic on google.

I do GSR swaps in my SMSF, and using the Perth Mint Depository (PMDS) program. I use e-superfnd (ESF) to manage my SMSF, and the first two GSR swaps I did, ESF ignored the transactions, but on the 3rd swap they calculated the CGT accordingly back to the original base cost obviously.

I questioned that with them, obviously i was hoping to dispute it, because i would rather pay the CGT when I cash out from the PMDS, and they referred their auditor/advisor (no doubt their own staff) and declared that their application of the CGT accounting is correct under law.

I raised this with an accountant, and he agreed with ESF.

Obviously I still disagree with this on principle :) but nothing I can do.
 
SMSF 3rd party swap
AUD Spot Price

Gold.......$2,419
Silver.............. $31
Platinum .............$1,347
Palladium..................... $2,714

Example,Swapping
1oz of Gold spot $2,419 for
78 ounces of Silver spot $2,418

If I record the transaction as an acquisition of 78 ounces of Silver using the SMSF's available stock of 1 ounce of gold as the swapping tool & record the spot price for both, would that suffice for an auditor.
The Disposal of the 1 ounce of Gold would trigger a CGT event recorded with the EOFY reconciliation with the Spot price of Gold on the day setting the disposal price for any CGT gain or loss.
Would most auditors be happy with this arrangement?
Thoughts



(Just saw Ainslie wealth allow swapping any asset for any asset in a SMSF
Swap
You can exchange any of our offered cryptocurrencies for gold and silver bullion. You can also buy any cryptocurrency with gold or silver. Move in and out of cryptocurrency with ease, while positioning your trades in stable, physical gold and silver.)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top