Germany Formally Requests That Greece Hand Over Its Fiscal Independenc

[Water&Food]

Fractional reserve banking [...] which appeared shortly after the invention of money itself. [...] Ancient Greece and Rome.

Well, money being a "medium of exchange" Monetary Unit of Wealth was not the first. Before money came seeds/grain, cattle, your children and pre-loved sex toys. Fractional Reserve concepts existed before physical banks or Ancient Greece.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking
Ancient Merchants were the banksters.

Earliest forms of banking

The history of banking is closely related to the history of money but banking transactions probably predate the invention of money. Deposits initially consisted of grain and later other goods including cattle, agricultural implements, and eventually precious metals such as gold, in the form of easy-to-carry compressed plates. Temples and palaces were the safest places to store gold as they were constantly attended and well built. As sacred places, temples presented an extra deterrent to would-be thieves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking#Earliest_forms_of_banking

The earliest banking info re: Ancient Greece derives from Merchant Foreigners migrating to Greece.

Pythius, who operated as a merchant banker throughout Asia Minor at the beginning of the 5th century BC, is the first individual banker of whom we have records. Many of the early bankers in Greek city-states were metics or foreign residents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking#Greece

Ancient Greece along with other Empires like that of Rome got drunk on taking credit for something that was not their own idea or achievement.
.

 

[mmm....shiney!]

Fractional reserve banking [...] which appeared shortly after the invention of money itself. [...] Ancient Greece and Rome.

Well, money being a "medium of exchange" Monetary Unit of Wealth was not the first. Before money came seeds/grain, cattle, your children and pre-loved sex toys. Fractional Reserve concepts existed before physical banks or Ancient Greece.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking
Ancient Merchants were the banksters.

Ancient Greece along with other Empires like that of Rome got drunk on taking credit for something that was not their own idea or achievement.

Fractional reserve banking did not exist before physical banks. Pre-loved sex toys may have, as did a promise, but not fractional reserve banking. Unless of course you are referring to liars, cheats and swindlers.

And debasers

 

[Water&Food]

Fractional reserve banking did not exist before physical banks.

Yes. Goldsmiths were before banks.

Savers looking to keep their valuables in safekeeping depositories deposited gold coins and silver coins at goldsmiths, receiving in turn a note for their deposit (see Bank of Amsterdam). Once these notes became a trusted medium of exchange an early form of paper money was born, in the form of the goldsmiths' notes.[3]

As the notes were used directly in trade, the goldsmiths observed that people would not usually redeem all their notes at the same time, and they saw the opportunity to invest their coin reserves in interest-bearing loans and bills. This generated income for the goldsmiths but left them with more notes on issue than reserves with which to pay them. A process was started that altered the role of the goldsmiths from passive guardians of bullion, charging fees for safe storage, to interest-paying and interest-earning banks. Thus fractional-reserve banking was born.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking#History

 

[mmm....shiney!]

Fractional reserve banking did not exist before physical banks. Pre-loved sex toys may have, as did a promise, but not fractional reserve banking. Unless of course you are referring to liars, cheats and swindlers.

Yes. Goldsmiths were before banks.

Savers looking to keep their valuables in safekeeping depositories deposited gold coins and silver coins at goldsmiths, receiving in turn a note for their deposit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking#History

That's the equivalent of a warehouse you are referring to - not a fractional reserve bank. Don't argue with me either, I just watched "Millionaire Hotseat".

 

[hyperinflation]

Anyway... my argument is that fractional reserve banking could just as easily (and did back in the day) work with gold/gold backed currency as it does with paper.

Unless you are completely against the idea of debt in any form? (Such as the "interest bearing loans and bills" that even goldsmiths invested in.)

 

[mmm....shiney!]

Anyway... my argument is that fractional reserve banking could just as easily (and did back in the day) work with gold/gold backed currency as it does with paper.

It's (gold backed) the only way it could and must work. Fractional reserve banking doesn't work with unbacked paper, as has been born out.

 

[jparrie]

For all the bashing of fractional reserve banking, keep in mind that you could still have the same system with a gold backed or even a physical gold currency..

Please elaborate :/

I deposit 100oz gold in a bank account (for which i receive interest), and they lend it out 90oz to someone who requires it, eg to buy a house (earning interest on the loan).
The borrower of the 90oz then pays for the house, and the seller of the house deposits 90oz in a bank, which then lends out 81oz... same process as with fiat.

Fractional reseve banking has been around since the invention of banks - which appeared shortly after the invention of money itself. Read up on the history of early finance in Ancient Greece and Rome.

Maybe, but it's slightly different with fiat. For example, you deposit $100 at the bank, they hold it as 'reserve' and then write $1000 in freshly created dosh. Someone then deposits that $1000 at the bank, they hold it as 'reserve' and then write $10,000 in loans etc, etc.

And that's just using a 10% reserve ratio. In Aus, there is no reserve ratio, so banks can pretty much write whatever they like. Whereas in your example there is a diminishing ability to write new loans, the current system there is practically no limit.

 

[hyperinflation]

Please elaborate :/

I deposit 100oz gold in a bank account (for which i receive interest), and they lend it out 90oz to someone who requires it, eg to buy a house (earning interest on the loan).
The borrower of the 90oz then pays for the house, and the seller of the house deposits 90oz in a bank, which then lends out 81oz... same process as with fiat.

Fractional reseve banking has been around since the invention of banks - which appeared shortly after the invention of money itself. Read up on the history of early finance in Ancient Greece and Rome.

Maybe, but it's slightly different with fiat. For example, you deposit $100 at the bank, they hold it as 'reserve' and then write $1000 in freshly created dosh. Someone then deposits that $1000 at the bank, they hold it as 'reserve' and then write $10,000 in loans etc, etc.

And that's just using a 10% reserve ratio. In Aus, there is no reserve ratio, so banks can pretty much write whatever they like. Whereas in your example there is a diminishing ability to write new loans, the current system there is practically no limit.

Actually, that is not right - the banks cannot just create money from thin air - they have to either borrow it (from depositors or in the market) or sell shares. Only the reserve bank can actually create new money.

Yes it all happens electronically, but real money actually has to transfer for a loan to be created. If what you suggested took place, then the charts earlier in this thread would not settle down at a level, but continue to infinity. Yet they settle at a level approximated by a log function.

AS for reserve ratios, while there is currently no mandated reserve ratio in Australia, banks keep approx 8% of their assets in liquid instruments (cash, deposits at the RBA, Commonwealth government bonds). This will be formalised by the Basel III regs

 

[Water&Food]

Not to be contentious; but, I assumed "Reserve Banks" are actually corrupt mongrels from banks whom conspire how to rip off unsuspecting consumers. Therefore, it is appropriate to assume the banks themselves can 'create money out of thin air' by influencing votes/decisions at the Reserve Banks. I scratch your back if you scratch mine.

Source: Vague reading on Reserve Bank history (various Central Banks worldwide) - Wiki and opinionated articles/commentaries.

The Bank has the responsibility of providing services to the Government of Australia in addition to also providing services to other central banks and official institutions.[3] It currently consists of the Payments System Board, which governs the payments system policy of the Bank, and the Reserve Bank Board, which governs all other monetary and banking policies of the bank.[4]

Both Boards consist of members of both the Bank, the Treasury, other Australian government agencies, and leaders of other institutions that are part of the economy.[4][5] The structure of the Reserve Bank Board has remained consistent ever since 1951
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_Bank_of_Australia

No need to mention obvious troll obvious Fed Reserve (USA).

European Central Bank
[...] The current President of the ECB is Mario Draghi, former governor of the Bank of Italy [...]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Central_Bank

Shareholders of the European Central Bank:

All National Central Banks (NCBs) that own a share of the ECB capital stock as of 1 January 2011 are listed below. Non-Euro area NCBs are required to pay up only a very small percentage of their subscribed capital, which accounts for the different magnitudes of Euro area and Non-Euro area total paid-up capital.[36]
NCB Capital Key (%) Paid-up Capital ()
Nationale Bank van Belgi / Banque Nationale de Belgique 2.4256 180,157,051.35
Deutsche Bundesbank 18.9373 1,406,533,694.10
Eesti Pank 0.1790 13,294,901.14
Central Bank of Ireland 1.1107 82,495,232.91
(Bank of Greece) 1.9649 145,939,392.39
Banco de Espaa 8.3040 616,764,575.51
Banque de France 14.2212 1,056,253,899.48
Banca d'Italia 12.4966 928,162,354.81
K / Kbrs Merkez Bankas
(Central Bank of Cyprus) 0.1369 10,167,999.81
Banque centrale du Luxembourg 0.1747 12,975,526.42
Bank entrali ta' Malta 0.0632 4,694,065.65
De Nederlandsche Bank 3.9882 296,216,339.12
sterreichische Nationalbank 1.9417 144,216,254.37
Banco de Portugal 1.7504 130,007,792.98
Banka Slovenije 0.3288 24,421,025.10
Nrodn banka Slovenska 0.6934 51,501,030.43
Suomen Pankki - Finlands Bank 1.2539 93,131,153.81
Total 69.9705 5,196,932,289.36
Non-Euro area:
(Bulgarian National Bank) 0.8686 3,505,013.50
esk nrodn banka 1.4472 5,839,806.06
Danmarks Nationalbank 1.4835 5,986,285.44
Latvijas Banka 0.2837 1,144,798.91
Lietuvos bankas 0.4256 1,717,400.12
Magyar Nemzeti Bank 1.3856 5,591,234.99
Narodowy Bank Polski 4.8954 19,754,136.66
Banca Naional a Romniei 2.4645 9,944,860.44
Sveriges Riksbank 2.2582 9,112,389.47
Bank of England 14.5172 58,580,453.65
Total 30.0295 121,176,379.25
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Central_Bank#Organization

 

[jparrie]

Actually, that is not right

Yes, of course you are right, only reserve banks print money. I guess the whole point was that even though a similar thing can occur under a gold standard, it is limited by the actual amount of gold in circulation, whereas with fiat the ponzi scheme is much, much larger.

 

[hyperinflation]

Actually, that is not right

Yes, of course you are right, only reserve banks print money. I guess the whole point was that even though a similar thing can occur under a gold standard, it is limited by the actual amount of gold in circulation, whereas with fiat the ponzi scheme is much, much larger.

You might also be surprised to hear that aus the aus bank loan to deposit ratio is only 150% - meaning that 2/3 of the banks lending is covered by deposits, and 1/3 by bond/money Market borrowings.

 

[systematic]

whether its the banks, the reserve banks, the central banks, or the bank of international settlements .... are we not looking at different parts of the elephant in the room?

 

[mmm....shiney!]

whether its the banks, the reserve banks, the central banks, or the bank of international settlements .... are we not looking at different parts of the elephant in the room?

I think this thread got derailled.

Germ-ny has already tried to take over Europe. Twice I recollect.

 

[systematic]

whether its the banks, the reserve banks, the central banks, or the bank of international settlements .... are we not looking at different parts of the elephant in the room?

I think this thread got derailled.

Germ-ny has already tried to take over Europe. Twice I recollect.

It is a work in progress ...

 

[injin]

People need to wake up and realise the bankers are scammers creating money out of thin air
and trying to seize control of hard assets using debt as slavery

Banks do not create money from thin air. They create money supply from thin air, and anyone can do this - if they have the resources.

The fraudulence is because they pass this money supply off as money.

You too seem to have fallen for the fraud. Shame on you.

 

[Silber]

Since this thread seems to be no longer about Greece and its fiscal independence, I'm not sure whether this is the right place to ask this, but ... I wonder in how far a "fiscal independence" still exists at all in Greece. Right now. The so-called "Troika" (EC,ECB,IMF) already dictates (at least to some extent) how they have to manage their finances in order to receive the next bailout payment...

 

[Water&Food]

In order of most importance...

Since this thread seems to be no longer about Greece and its fiscal independence, I'm not sure whether this is the right place to ask this, but ... I wonder in how far a "fiscal independence" still exists at all in Greece. Right now. The so-called "Troika" (EC,ECB,IMF) already dictates (at least to some extent) how they have to manage their finances in order to receive the next bailout payment...

Can someone please chime in and answer this. I have not been following ZeroHedge for a while and have lost my mojo.

I do know Greece citizens have quite a lot of Gold hanging off their necks. There is a few pics in SilverStackers of massive oversized chains and crosses. >_<

People need to wake up and realise the bankers are scammers creating money out of thin air

Banks do not create money from thin air. They create money supply from thin air, and anyone can do this
Shame on you.

And Shame on you for being difficult. Please understand most just cut to the chase with sayings and can't be arsd to be 100% accurate with their expressions and links. For the love of Gold, let there be light - W&F

thread got derailled.

It is a work in progress ...

Did it ever leave the station? We were the only passengers in the bar coach. :lol:

 

[systematic]

People need to wake up and realise the bankers are scammers creating money out of thin air
and trying to seize control of hard assets using debt as slavery

Banks do not create money from thin air. They create money supply from thin air, and anyone can do this - if they have the resources.

The fraudulence is because they pass this money supply off as money.

You too seem to have fallen for the fraud. Shame on you.

Please elaborate on this. It seems you are saying that banks do not create money from thin air,
but create money supply (from thin air) and pass this money off as money.

I am not sure if you are just splitting straws, and saying a straw that has been split is not a straw.
The line of thinking not disimilar to a person saying they didnt shoot anyone, they just pulled the trigger.

 

[systematic]

thread got derailled.

It is a work in progress ...

Did it ever leave the station? We were the only passengers in the bar coach. :lol:

i think you got my quote and shineys around the wrong way.

 

[Water&Food]

yeah oh well was not important