Free trade agreement - discuss.

[tolly_67]

It has been shown many times historically that tariffs are a negative for world trade........the argument gets lost in peripheral distractions.
An example was during the great depression....to protect U.S. steel from cheap russian imports, tariffs were added/increased...
This was counteracted immediately by a tariff on u.s. food imports to russia......as the u.s. produced more food than it could consume, primary produce prices plummeted and combined with drought, sent many farmers to the wall.
There must be balance and accept that we are not dependant upon others. It is a global economy.

 

[Shaddam IV]

We don't generally compete in the same industries. Australia is much better at services than China. China is much better at making T-shirts and toasters.

Clothing, cars, food, cookwear, footwear, sporting goods, pharmaceuticals, furniture, tools, packaging, building materials, safety equipment, cleaning products, electronics, railway carriages, military hardware, truck parts, stationary, marine hardware, boat building... there are thousands of Australian businesses manufacturing things in Australia that China competes directly with. What are you talking about?

 

[Shaddam IV]

It has been shown many times historically that tariffs are a negative for world trade...

Tariffs aren't about protecting world trade - they are about protecting individual economies from being overwhelmed by un-balanced trade and labour conditions between countries.

 

[SilverSaviour]

I shouldn't have said industries. most dont compete directly Aussie made stuff is often higjer quality and costs more. Its a good thing consumers have a choice. Many Aussie companies use China to make things too. Mine does. The profit stays in australia and employs Australians.

 

[markcoinoz]

Free Trade Agreements tend to benefit one country more than another especially when you are dealing with the US.

Anyone remember AUSFTA ?
Maybe take a trip down memory lane.

http://www.bilaterals.org/spip.php?article15237

OK! What about the big one that is on our doorsteps right now.
The Trans Pacific Partnership.

Well if it's so bloody good, why has it been done in secret for the last 3 or 4 years?
What makes this one so different to the rest?

I will hazard a guess and say Corporatisation over Sovereignty of nations.
Haven't we already seen that the "Big Boys" don't play fair.
Look at who is in charge of the major corporations, in bed with the banksters and the political cesspool of corruption.

I am all for Free Trade only if it could be transparent.
Facts are it is not a level playing field and the grubs at the top will steal your wealth.

If opening up borders is such a great idea, then no one should be concerned about China buying up our Resources - Our Food Bowls - Our Infrastructure - Our Real Estate. Everything is hunky dory. Seeing as open borders is such a great idea with "Free Trade", it shouldn't be a problem opening up our borders for anyone to migrate here either should it? That would mean no illegal boat people. Wonderful! A free society where anything goes. Yep! I can see it now.
Taliban Mustafa beheads his next door neighbour Jimmy for playing "Highway To Hell" up too loud.
OK, that is a bit over the top, but you get my point.


The issues we are facing now is the watering down of our civil liberties and rights to allow corporations the signed mandate
to overstep our laws bypassing sovereignty. That is the real issue. All in the name of "Free Trade" to maximise profit for the multi-national corporations at the citizens expense. Considering we have witnessed over the last couple of years sweeping changes overriding the constitution of the US and broadening their power internationally, they would be one country I would not be signing a Free trade agreement with simply because they can't be trusted and they don't pay their debts. $17 Trillion of them. That's like doing a deal with a gangster. You sign, but you know you are going to get shafted.

http://www.wikileaksparty.org.au/why-australians-should-be-worried-about-the-tpp/

Further.

Watch 5:50 sec Regarding the Trans Pacific Partnership

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfGjR6yzoWg[/youtube]

Free Trade ? :lol:

Now that is funny.

 

[tolly_67]

It has been shown many times historically that tariffs are a negative for world trade...

Tariffs aren't about protecting world trade - they are about protecting individual economies from being overwhelmed by un-balanced trade and labour conditions between countries.

This is true, but every action has an equal and opposite reaction. You cannot place tariffs and not expect some sort of response from the nation that will be impacted by the decision. They in turn are justified in placing tariffs on goods that originate from our country if it means protecting one of their own markets.
Tariffs have the effect also of creating a misallocation of capital into what would otherwise be an uncompetitive industry. This in turn leads to a worse outcome.
Think of the car industry in Australia in the 70's. The cars coming out of Japan were superior in every way, aircon standard, more efficient, better build quality etc, but we were stuck with the crap Holden and Ford pushed out because they were protected. Now look at Ford in Australia....it is our own fault.
Advancement is possible only with ingenuity which is the foundation of manufacturing. Why become the world's best if you don't have to be.

 

[tolly_67]

A simple analogy of tariffs.....
If you punch someone in the nose, there is a good chance you will cop one back and another for good measure.
Understand that the production of goods is a persons livelihood, regardless of which country they originate from, so in turn an assault on their livelihood irrespective of the reason will never be without serious opposition.

 

[Earthjade]

The cars coming out of Japan were superior in every way, aircon standard, more efficient, better build quality etc, but we were stuck with the crap Holden and Ford pushed out because they were protected. Now look at Ford in Australia....it is our own fault.
Advancement is possible only with ingenuity which is the foundation of manufacturing. Why become the world's best if you don't have to be.

Never mind that Japan at the time (and remains) was one of the most protected economies on earth, thanks to the efforts of MITI.

I believe it is important for the national interest to protect key industries - it keeps a skill base and infrastructure within the nation.
Look at France and the UK - both made cars but not as good as Japan or Germany. The UK went the "liberalisation" route. Now they have no true home-owned car industry to speak of. France protected their car industry as the government identified it as important for national defence. As a result, Peugeot and Renault-Nissan are still top car companies and Britain has nothing. While it costs money to protect these companies, the value multipliers they provide to the French economy as a whole pays it back.

And I'll say something else that may be controversial:
Free Trade Agreements = a step closer to One World Government

 

[SilverSaviour]

The cars coming out of Japan were superior in every way, aircon standard, more efficient, better build quality etc, but we were stuck with the crap Holden and Ford pushed out because they were protected. Now look at Ford in Australia....it is our own fault.
Advancement is possible only with ingenuity which is the foundation of manufacturing. Why become the world's best if you don't have to be.

Never mind that Japan at the time (and remains) was one of the most protected economies on earth, thanks to the efforts of MITI.

I believe it is important for the national interest to protect key industries - it keeps a skill base and infrastructure within the nation.
Look at France and the UK - both made cars but not as good as Japan or Germany. The UK went the "liberalisation" route. Now they have no true home-owned car industry to speak of. France protected their car industry as the government identified it as important for national defence. As a result, Peugeot and Renault-Nissan are still top car companies and Britain has nothing. While it costs money to protect these companies, the value multipliers they provide to the French economy as a whole pays it back.

No.
To be consistent you should also be lamenting the loss of textile manufacturing. Bring back really low value labour!

It doesn't matter if we lose ALL auto manufacturing. If its done better in other countries then we can concentrate on things we do better here.
Does the butcher do a good job at laying bricks ?

And I'll say something else that may be controversial:
Free Trade Agreements = a step closer to One World Government

No, it isn't.
Supporting the UN and climate change alarmism is a step towards that. NOT free trade.

Why don't we have tariffs between QLD and NSW ?

 

[Shaddam IV]

I will believe in free trade if a single proponent of it can explain to me how you can throw open a country like Australia's borders to free trade with a sweatshop labour country like China and not also throw open the labour market to free trade as well. If we remove the tariffs on goods then we either have to remove the protections on the wages of Australians who make similar goods here or they will be removed for us down the line by simple market forces and our wages will fall to match those of China.

It seems that those who shout for our right to buy everything freely from foreign sweatshops seem to have no answer to the other side of the equation, I don't hear then denouncing the "tariffs" imposed by the government on Australian businesses that employ Australians.

 

[bordsilver]

I will believe in free trade if a single proponent of it can explain to me how you can throw open a country like Australia's borders to free trade with a sweatshop labour country like China and not also throw open the labour market to free trade as well. If we remove the tariffs on goods then we either have to remove the protections on the wages of Australians who make similar goods here or they will be removed for us down the line by simple market forces and our wages will fall to match those of China.

It seems that those who shout for our right to buy everything freely from foreign sweatshops seem to have no answer to the other side of the equation, I don't hear then denouncing the "tariffs" imposed by the government on Australian businesses that employ Australians.

The simple answer is that we are already very close to being tariff free. Almost all of our traded goods have tariffs of less than 5% and we had such for years. Australia has been one of the main trailblazers. The biggest exception is our use of strict biosecurity laws as pseudo-tariff barriers.

Edit: And in terms of services, IP laws.

 

[tolly_67]

In reality, we all have cupboards full of foreign made clothing, most of us drive foreign cars, our sheds are full of cheap foreign tools........
Do we really seek out the Australian made product........the answer is a big NO......because they are too expensive or less advanced..
So why do we protect something that we don't support..........
It is easy to take the moral high ground but in truth we are all guilty of undermining our own manufacturing because at the end of the day we try get as much as we can from the pay we get.
No different to bringing in foreign workers on those special visas, in truth we are allowing it by proxy everyday when we buy all these cheap items.....just because it doesn't happen on our shore does not change the fact that we all take advantage of cheap labour.....I am sure all our leading unionists are just as guilty of this

 

[Silver Pauper]

In reality, we all have cupboards full of foreign made clothing, most of us drive foreign cars, our sheds are full of cheap foreign tools........
Do we really seek out the Australian made product........the answer is a big NO......because they are too expensive or less advanced..
So why do we protect something that we don't support..........
It is easy to take the moral high ground but in truth we are all guilty of undermining our own manufacturing because at the end of the day we try get as much as we can from the pay we get.
No different to bringing in foreign workers on those special visas, in truth we are allowing it by proxy everyday when we buy all these cheap items.....just because it doesn't happen on our shore does not change the fact that we all take advantage of cheap labour.....I am sure all our leading unionists are just as guilty of this

Let me tell you about my experience with the Australian 'rag trade'(textile and clothing industry)...

About 3 or 4 years ago, I was asked by a few friends in the military uniform supply trade to help design and win a tender for a uniform contract with the army. We decided early on that we were going to do everything we could to have these made in the Australia. So patterns and materials were sent to various firms in NSW and Victoria for them to make samples for us and to provide quotations for making the uniforms for us. Unbeknownst to me, patterns and materials were sent to China as well for samples and quotations. When all the samples were returned I was asked to do a blind test of quality of the samples... stitching, fit and finish, etc and etc... all tags were removed so I have no idea where anything was made... in fact... I did not even know about that Chinese samples even existed. I went through the samples thoroughly and there was a very large and obvious differences in the quality and attention to detail of the samples. Some were immediate rejects, some were mediocre, some good, and there were 2 samples that definitely stood head and shoulders above the rest. Want to hazard a guess where those samples where made? China!!

At first I was completely enraged that we had even involved foreign manufacturers, then I was gutted that the Australian-made samples were clearly sub-standard. But the worst was yet to come. I was determined to keep the supply domestic, so we contacted the local firms and informed them of our dissatisfaction with their workmanship and quality and asked them to make the needed improvements to bring the goods up to standard. We were literally told to go get stuffed and that we were expecting too much and if we were not happy, it was our problem, not theirs. We willing to pay 4 times the price of the Chinese to buy local and the locals could not even be bothered to listen to our concerns.

Compared to the Chinese who refused payment for the samples, rang us everyday asking if there was anything more they could do, any problems or concerns, they would make new samples straightaway and airfreight them to us free of charge, while the local firms were paid very well for their samples and the shipping was on us, not mention we were at the back of the line for getting anything made.

Unfortunately, it became very apparent that we would get a significantly better product and along with excellent customer service if we sourced from the Chinese. It was never about money for us, but with the capital and investment that we were risking to tender and supply the contract, I was not willing to risk receiving substandard products that I would be liable for replacing on my back not to mention the damage to our reputation as a quality supplier.

I personally make a very big effort buy Australian-made even if the cost is much greater, but I will not buy sub-standard products no matter who makes them.

 

[Byron]

In reality, we all have cupboards full of foreign made clothing, most of us drive foreign cars, our sheds are full of cheap foreign tools........
Do we really seek out the Australian made product........the answer is a big NO......because they are too expensive or less advanced..
So why do we protect something that we don't support..........
It is easy to take the moral high ground but in truth we are all guilty of undermining our own manufacturing because at the end of the day we try get as much as we can from the pay we get.
No different to bringing in foreign workers on those special visas, in truth we are allowing it by proxy everyday when we buy all these cheap items.....just because it doesn't happen on our shore does not change the fact that we all take advantage of cheap labour.....I am sure all our leading unionists are just as guilty of this

Speak for yourself. I go out of my way to check the country of origin for every product i intend to buy, including food.

I'm also happy to pay extra for Aussie produce because 9/10 times it is far superior to imported junk and the well being of my family is more important than saving a few $ by scraping the bottom of the imported goods barrel.

Obviously it is getting harder and harder to find Aussie made goods which is a real shame. I'd rather the choice to buy australian rather than the only choice being buying made in China goods and supporting their manufacturing base.

 

[Shaddam IV]

In reality, we all have cupboards full of foreign made clothing, most of us drive foreign cars, our sheds are full of cheap foreign tools........
Do we really seek out the Australian made product........the answer is a big NO......because they are too expensive or less advanced..
So why do we protect something that we don't support..........
It is easy to take the moral high ground but in truth we are all guilty of undermining our own manufacturing because at the end of the day we try get as much as we can from the pay we get.
No different to bringing in foreign workers on those special visas, in truth we are allowing it by proxy everyday when we buy all these cheap items.....just because it doesn't happen on our shore does not change the fact that we all take advantage of cheap labour.....I am sure all our leading unionists are just as guilty of this

Let me tell you about my experience with the Australian 'rag trade'(textile and clothing industry)...

About 3 or 4 years ago, I was asked by a few friends in the military uniform supply trade to help design and win a tender for a uniform contract with the army. We decided early on that we were going to do everything we could to have these made in the Australia. So patterns and materials were sent to various firms in NSW and Victoria for them to make samples for us and to provide quotations for making the uniforms for us. Unbeknownst to me, patterns and materials were sent to China as well for samples and quotations. When all the samples were returned I was asked to do a blind test of quality of the samples... stitching, fit and finish, etc and etc... all tags were removed so I have no idea where anything was made... in fact... I did not even know about that Chinese samples even existed. I went through the samples thoroughly and there was a very large and obvious differences in the quality and attention to detail of the samples. Some were immediate rejects, some were mediocre, some good, and there were 2 samples that definitely stood head and shoulders above the rest. Want to hazard a guess where those samples where made? China!!

At first I was completely enraged that we had even involved foreign manufacturers, then I was gutted that the Australian-made samples were clearly sub-standard. But the worst was yet to come. I was determined to keep the supply domestic, so we contacted the local firms and informed them of our dissatisfaction with their workmanship and quality and asked them to make the needed improvements to bring the goods up to standard. We were literally told to go get stuffed and that we were expecting too much and if we were not happy, it was our problem, not theirs. We willing to pay 4 times the price of the Chinese to buy local and the locals could not even be bothered to listen to our concerns.

Compared to the Chinese who refused payment for the samples, rang us everyday asking if there was anything more they could do, any problems or concerns, they would make new samples straightaway and airfreight them to us free of charge, while the local firms were paid very well for their samples and the shipping was on us, not mention we were at the back of the line for getting anything made.

Unfortunately, it became very apparent that we would get a significantly better product and along with excellent customer service if we sourced from the Chinese. It was never about money for us, but with the capital and investment that we were risking to tender and supply the contract, I was not willing to risk receiving substandard products that I would be liable for replacing on my back not to mention the damage to our reputation as a quality supplier.

I personally make a very big effort buy Australian-made even if the cost is much greater, but I will not buy sub-standard products no matter who makes them.

As someone who is involved with the industry I can also point out that time after time I have seen exactly what you saw - An Australian business sends patterns to China and the they receive beautifully made samples back. BUT they go ahead with the deal and the first shipment or two matches the samples and then things fall to pieces - quality becomes erratic, fabrics and notions suddenly become cheaper and it isn't long until the business is stressing out as what they are receiving deteriorates from shipment to shipment and demands for larger orders start coming from the manufacturer and things arrive later and later.

 

[SilverSaviour]

That can happen I agree.
In my experience it generally doesn't take a lot of effort to keep them honest though.
I have sourced batteries, wires/connectors, custom machined plastic parts, custom machined metal parts, PCBs, specialised fabrics, custom injection molded parts, specially formed metal parts with specific coatings, customised thermal fuses, etc etc.

I get samples, almost always free and often quite decent quantities.
Getting things customised such as specific stainless steels in lithium battery casings, or changing plastic thermal fuses to ceramic are no problem at all ! It's amazing what can be done when the supplier is willing to help.
You usually just dont get such good service here, and the price is often astronomical. Sometimes it IS better to get things done in Australia, in some surprising industries too. It all depends.

Generally if things are out of spec in production runs then a single email is enough to get them back on track. Precisely defining specifications and tolerances is normally the best way to ensure consistent quality.

Like I said earlier, we all win if we let those do what they do best. China is a great place to get things made. Australia is the best place to get things designed. I would NEVER (at the current time) get the chinese to actually design something. I have once been surprised by Chinese ingenuity, but its not very common IMO. I would also never get them to assemble electronics assemblies for reliable products. They make lots of stuff, but it is generally substandard.

 

[Silver Pauper]

As someone who is involved with the industry I can also point out that time after time I have seen exactly what you saw - An Australian business sends patterns to China and the they receive beautifully made samples back. BUT they go ahead with the deal and the first shipment or two matches the samples and then things fall to pieces - quality becomes erratic, fabrics and notions suddenly become cheaper and it isn't long until the business is stressing out as what they are receiving deteriorates from shipment to shipment and demands for larger orders start coming from the manufacturer and things arrive later and later.

I concur that my experience has been similar on many occasions and one of the primary reasons that I did not want to use a foreign maker, as I prefer to be able to show up at the door of the maker with a frown on my face and the goods in question and sort the problem out face to face. But times do seem to be changing and the locals seem to be losing their desire to please the customer and the firms that we worked with in China delivered some of the most consistently high quality goods I have seen in a long time through entire contract. So I cannot fault them.

I still make very effort to source and manufacture in Australia and I am pleased to say that as result of that experience, several new shops started up, but there was no way they could deliver the quantities on the time schedule that we needed. But hope that in time the situation will change for the better and local manufacturing will be able to meet the quality and demand needed to supply some of these projects.

 

[SilverSaviour]

That settles it then, free trade is great even if its not even on both sides

 

[Earthjade]

^ Not really.
The fact you're freely entering into a trade is because you think it's worth it, which can be interpreted in various ways.
If it's not even AND you feel you're being coerced into taking an offer you otherwise would not have due to the fact you are bound by a free trade agreement, then it's not really a free trade agreement.

 

[bordsilver]

^ Not really.
The fact you're freely entering into a trade is because you think it's worth it, which can be interpreted in various ways.
If it's not even AND you feel you're being coerced into taking an offer you otherwise would not have due to the fact you are bound by a free trade agreement, then it's not really a free trade agreement.

That doesn't make any sense. If you are freely entering into a trade because you think its worth it, why would you take an offer that you otherwise would not? Either its worthwhile or its not.

The Government is not saying that you MUST buy New Zealand milk as a result of the free trade agreement, it is saying that it won't stop you if that is what you want (and preferably will also not tax you disproportionately to other potential suppliers via tariffs).