Fair Days work for POOR pay.

[FlashInThePan]

That's incorrect. 457 visas are a valuable resource for businesses to access workers on a "needs-as" basis.

Yes they are very valuable when the workers are slaves

Visas by their nature are just another form of government control over our freedom of movement, 457 visas at least go some way to meeting both the needs of the worker and the employer, thereby encouraging liberty. That some choose to rort the workers is not a fault with the visa system.

Liberty does not equate to slavery. There workers have entered into contracts (that most likely are invalid due to lack of disclosure) with the "slave running" agency's that exploit these people. Check out the 4 corners programme Shiney.

These visas are being used not for the original purpose. The policy is producing dreadful results.

With our strong immigration policy, little credence to the notion of some kind of labour shortage can be drawn.

 

[hyphenated]

Why do 457 visas need to be blamed?

A couple of scenarios are popular: Youths on a working holiday visa get a second year if they perform a few months of qualifying work. They might be happy for room and board and illegal use of WWOOF principles - I've encountered several who simply won't make complaints. The bigger rort is tourist visa overstayers from Asia. What you are seeing is the expansion of the grey economy as the cost of Australian labour wends ever upwards, and Europe has been doing it for years.

There are Farmers who pay a contractor to avoid the hassle of payroll, risks of injury claims et al. Then there are those that turn a blind eye to the fact that they are paying less than award. Then there the people you prop up a failing business model (farmers dealing with the big boys are price takers - some think the only way to survive is skimp on labour); then there are the evil Bast**ds who screw the workforce figuratively and literally.

What this does is keep prices down, pressurises farmers who do the right thing and who then get shafted on the next Union penalty and entitlement binge, whilst the crooks just keep on trucking people around the harvests. At one point ethical audits were proposed - soon got neutered and watered down. In the meantime audit compliance costs for small farmers are going through the roof as a one-size-fits-all audit template is applied to a small farm and a massive food processor.

 

[bordsilver]

That's incorrect. 457 visas are a valuable resource for businesses to access workers on a "needs-as" basis.

Yes they are very valuable when the workers are slaves

Visas by their nature are just another form of government control over our freedom of movement, 457 visas at least go some way to meeting both the needs of the worker and the employer, thereby encouraging liberty. That some choose to rort the workers is not a fault with the visa system.

Liberty does not equate to slavery. There workers have entered into contracts (that most likely are invalid due to lack of disclosure) with the "slave running" agency's that exploit these people. Check out the 4 corners programme Shiney.

These visas are being used not for the original purpose. The policy is producing dreadful results.

With our strong immigration policy, little credence to the notion of some kind of labour shortage can be drawn.

There's some emotive language being used here. In what way are the people working under temporary visa arrangements "slaves"?

These people on 417's are legally in Australia (for up to 12 months) working under a valid visa where they have choice of employer (for up to 6 months per employer) and who can leave and reenter as often as they want whilst it is valid. Can they not understand these terms?

 

[havo]

yes. i don't think slaves can choose to cease to be employed...

 

[tolly_67]

We are all guilty of taking advantage of slave labour by proxy.
The clothes on our backs, the shoes on our feet, the tools in our shed, the phones in our pocket.
All these and so much more is made by cheap labour. The only difference is that it is happening in someone else's backyard so we are wilfully blind to the plight of these people and are complicit in the perceived loss of jobs in our own country.

 

[bordsilver]

We are all guilty of taking advantage of slave labour by proxy.
The clothes on our backs, the shoes on our feet, the tools in our shed, the phones in our pocket.
All these and so much more is made by cheap labour. The only difference is that it is happening in someone else's backyard so we are wilfully blind to the plight of these people and are complicit in the perceived loss of jobs in our own country.

-1

Cheaper labour than you get paid or expect to be paid slave labour. Slavery is completely different to choosing the best option available to you given the situation you are in.

 

[havo]

would you rather these people starved than worked?

 

[renovator]

I went to bunnings the other day & was served by a young guy Who was 14 years old !!! Since when was it legal to employ 14 year olds ?

I had to ask how old he was because he looked about 12 . Couldnt believe it

 

[bordsilver]

I went to bunnings the other day & was served by a young guy Who was 14 years old !!! Since when was it legal to employ 14 year olds ?

I had to ask how old he was because he looked about 12 . Couldnt believe it

It's immoral for a 14 year old to work!!


(Of course it was perfectly fine when I was a kid, but times have changed. )

 

[tolly_67]

would you rather these people starved than worked?

Of course not.
My point was that we make compromises all our lives, sometimes without realising it.
We accept that there are others that are willing to work for barely enough to survive on, yet we would be loathe to do it ourselves.
Is it any different that they are working somewhere else instead of here?.....This is a question without an answer.

 

[Ag bullet]

i'm working on a tomato farm at the moment. our region has an influx of backpackers every summer growing season with lots of south koreans. backpackers do plenty of dodgy stuff too don't worry. one guy i was working with had a 2 year visa run out so he flew home, changed his name , got a new passport, and is now back in the country on another 2 year visa.

while the program highlighted some terrible practices on behalf of employers and employment agencies, this wouldn't be the majority of cases. most farms are good, with the big farms tending to be the ones that do the exploiting. to go as far as call it slavery is just hyperbole for the story. they all have the choice to say 'get stuffed' and leave there are plenty of other places for them to work.

i've done it myself when travelling years ago. i once picked cherries in young, nsw and pay was worked out by piece rate. that day i worked for $4.50/hr and it wasn't because i was a poor picker. needless to say i was only there for one day. i didn't stay there and then complain about the $hit pay. i moved on.

 

[havo]

I went to bunnings the other day & was served by a young guy Who was 14 years old !!! Since when was it legal to employ 14 year olds ?

I had to ask how old he was because he looked about 12 . Couldnt believe it

slave or entrepreneur?

glass half empty or full?

 

[havo]

would you rather these people starved than worked?

Of course not.
My point was that we make compromises all our lives, sometimes without realising it.
We accept that there are others that are willing to work for barely enough to survive on, yet we would be loathe to do it ourselves.
Is it any different that they are working somewhere else instead of here?.....This is a question without an answer.

As long as housing prices keep going up it shouldn't be problem

 

[SpacePete]

Landline last week covered seasonal workers, and specifically a seasonal worker scheme that helps both farmers and Pacific Islanders. It seems to be working very well for all involved.

One grower had an interesting comment on having workers supplied and managed by contract agencies vs. the seasonal worker scheme to help Pacific Islanders. Paraphrasing: "Deep down we knew that some of the people the contractors were bringing were illegals, we also knew that a number of them were being exploited, and that didn't rest easily with us. Knowing (now) with this scheme that everythings above board ... gives us a great sense of relief."

And a comment from another person who wants more Pacific Islanders to come to Australia under the seasonal workers scheme: "We'd like it to increase so that other farmers who are having trouble getting labour can access the type of labour that we have knowing that everyone's being paid above board"

You can see the segment here: Pacific Solution

 

[FlashInThePan]

These people on 417's are legally in Australia (for up to 12 months) working under a valid visa where they have choice of employer (for up to 6 months per employer) and who can leave and reenter as often as they want whilst it is valid. Can they not understand these terms?

You have detected correctly a certain emotional element to my post. Slavery had been abolished but now is operating within our country and knowingly so, by I believe some big corporations that spend money promoting a different image.

The 4 corners programme showed people who had overstayed their visas who the agency's were aware of and given false identities. These people were desperate and underpaid the minimum award.

A valid Visa = valid in law. The policy that enacts that law is the issue, the reasoning behind it and those who lobby to keep it so.

The entry of cheap labour by policy is market intervention that undermines our standard of living. The wage floor that existed is perforated.

 

[havo]

These people on 417's are legally in Australia (for up to 12 months) working under a valid visa where they have choice of employer (for up to 6 months per employer) and who can leave and reenter as often as they want whilst it is valid. Can they not understand these terms?

You have detected correctly a certain emotional element to my post. Slavery had been abolished but now is operating within our country and knowingly so, by I believe some big corporations that spend money promoting a different image.

The 4 corners programme showed people who had overstayed their visas who the agency's were aware of and given false identities. These people were desperate and underpaid the minimum award.

A valid Visa = valid in law. The policy that enacts that law is the issue, the reasoning behind it and those who lobby to keep it so.

The entry of cheap labour by policy is market intervention that undermines our standard of living. The wage floor that existed is perforated.

Cheap labour graviting to Oz is the free market working. Inflated minimum wages and absurd border controls are the market intevention. If there are no capital controls why can't some folks looking for a better life come here and pick fruit for whatever somebody can afford to pay them.

 

[whinfell]

For those that haven't seen the Four Corners program, it's available on iView: http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/four-corners/NC1504H014S00#

 

[havo]

For those that haven't seen the Four Corners program, it's available on iView: http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/four-corners/NC1504H014S00#

cash in hand for the workers. no tax declared or paid by them. "yes, just cash in hand. and no bank account or tax file number."

it looks like tough work but yet they stay as conditions are better than back home.

 

[FlashInThePan]

These people on 417's are legally in Australia (for up to 12 months) working under a valid visa where they have choice of employer (for up to 6 months per employer) and who can leave and reenter as often as they want whilst it is valid. Can they not understand these terms?

You have detected correctly a certain emotional element to my post. Slavery had been abolished but now is operating within our country and knowingly so, by I believe some big corporations that spend money promoting a different image.

The 4 corners programme showed people who had overstayed their visas who the agency's were aware of and given false identities. These people were desperate and underpaid the minimum award.

A valid Visa = valid in law. The policy that enacts that law is the issue, the reasoning behind it and those who lobby to keep it so.

The entry of cheap labour by policy is market intervention that undermines our standard of living. The wage floor that existed is perforated.

Cheap labour graviting to Oz is the free market working. Inflated minimum wages and absurd border controls are the market intevention. If there are no capital controls why can't some folks looking for a better life come here and pick fruit for whatever somebody can afford to pay them.

Free market to the extent that is beneficial to the people of the country for which policy is developed for there benefit.
The term free market usually equates to free corporation access to resources and cheap labour without restriction.

 

[havo]

You have detected correctly a certain emotional element to my post. Slavery had been abolished but now is operating within our country and knowingly so, by I believe some big corporations that spend money promoting a different image.

The 4 corners programme showed people who had overstayed their visas who the agency's were aware of and given false identities. These people were desperate and underpaid the minimum award.

A valid Visa = valid in law. The policy that enacts that law is the issue, the reasoning behind it and those who lobby to keep it so.

The entry of cheap labour by policy is market intervention that undermines our standard of living. The wage floor that existed is perforated.

Cheap labour graviting to Oz is the free market working. Inflated minimum wages and absurd border controls are the market intevention. If there are no capital controls why can't some folks looking for a better life come here and pick fruit for whatever somebody can afford to pay them.

Free market to the extent that is beneficial to the people of the country for which policy is developed for there benefit.
The term free market usually equates to free corporation access to resources and cheap labour without restriction.

The only thing you need for a free market is a willing buy and a willing seller. It's as simple as that.

If you don't like it I am happy to set a price for all your gold and silver if you like?