'Experts' call for GST revamp

[rbaggio]

It really shits me how people are saying "the mining boom is over, we're getting less tax from resources, so we should increase the GST to compensate."

HOW ABOUT YOU SPEND LESS MONEY?

 

[Willow]

I watched that speech delivery fron Greiner, One thing not specifically mentioned here that i picked up on, was that whilst talking about the inbalance in revenue vs expense for state governments. He made it clear that it was his view that state governments really had no way to simply reduce the amount they spend, the only cost reduction choice they have is to reduce government employee numbers.( that is where the comment in the article about government job cuts came from.)

I was shocked but not surprised that a career politician could not concieve of the possibility of reducing expenditure. It was also interesting to note he seemed to lean towards the view that government employee job losses are a bad thing. So he comes to the view that we have no choice but to increase tax revenue and it is simply from that point on, a discussion of where the increased revenue comes from.

Another day in paradise..

 

[Big A.D.]

THE former premier hand-picked to review the carve-up of the GST has warned the tax is failing to deliver the revenue expected of it

The irony is that any drop in GST revenue is a symptom of a drop in consumption, which in turn is a result of an impoverished middle class trying to save.

GST revenue isn't actually falling, GST revenue growth is falling.

In a nutshell, people are spending money on more GST-free stuff than they used to. It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear that the aging Boomer demographic has bought enough "stuff" and are now spending their money on GST-free health care and are stashing as much as they can away into savings and investments (which are also GST-free) to help pay the bills when they retire.

If that is true then broadening the GST base to include fresh fruit and vegetables is counter-productive because (a) regardless of age, it increases the tax burden on poor people, and (b) for older people, discouraging them from eating healthy food by taxing it to pay for the health care system is a bit silly - eating healthy food keeps pressure off the health care system in the first place.

 

[Eureka Moments]

Not sure if my memory serves me correctly. But wasn't there a political promise that the 10% GST rate would NEVER be increased. I think this was when/before it was introduced.

That would have been J. Howard.

Prior to that he also promised that a GST would never be introduced.

 

[ToDaMoon]

GST revenue isn't actually falling, GST revenue growth is falling.

In a nutshell, people are spending money on more GST-free stuff than they used to. It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear that the aging Boomer demographic has bought enough "stuff" and are now spending their money on GST-free health care and are stashing as much as they can away into savings and investments (which are also GST-free) to help pay the bills when they retire.

I would have to agree. I used to like being a typical consumer. Buying new products and replacing old each time soemthing new came out. Then I got to thinking about the fact that I was only really paying FULL PRICE on the upgrade featuires and thinking on it started to realise that it was not justified. I didn't even bother looking at the new iphone 5, and my most recent purchases (more than a year ago now) have been pourchased for longevity for the purpose that they were created as opposed to the feature sets represented.

I and people like me are the cause of the problem right now. More than that though are the people who create these products and expect consumers to fall for their marketing spin, thinking that we are all such sheep that we will never work it out.

We have also moved away from pre prepped foods, moving largely to fresh produce to cook. Our food bill in this regard is certainly higher, but the government coffers would be missing out!

 

[CriticalSilver]

THE former premier hand-picked to review the carve-up of the GST has warned the tax is failing to deliver the revenue expected of it

The irony is that any drop in GST revenue is a symptom of a drop in consumption, which in turn is a result of an impoverished middle class trying to save.

GST revenue isn't actually falling, GST revenue growth is falling.

In a nutshell, people are spending money on more GST-free stuff than they used to. It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear that the aging Boomer demographic has bought enough "stuff" and are now spending their money on GST-free health care and are stashing as much as they can away into savings and investments (which are also GST-free) to help pay the bills when they retire.

If that is true then broadening the GST base to include fresh fruit and vegetables is counter-productive because (a) regardless of age, it increases the tax burden on [poor] people, and (b) for older people, discouraging them from eating healthy food by taxing it to pay for the health care system is a bit silly - eating healthy food keeps pressure off the health care system in the first place.

Well, "poor" is a relative term and completely unnecessary to use, unless you want to bias the statement towards everyone having an obligation to pay whatever the government asks. Remove it and your statement makes objective sense.

As for a decline in revenue growth, you are talking about a decline in growth rate, but only the reason such a decline is problematic is because the rate of growth of government expenses is now outpacing its revenue. You are saying that government expenses and liabilities are growing faster than revenues. Again, that makes perfect sense and is why everyone is saying to reduce expenses. Thanks for clearing that up, much easier to see the problem in those terms.

 

[JulieW]

Not sure if my memory serves me correctly. But wasn't there a political promise that the 10% GST rate would NEVER be increased. I think this was when/before it was introduced.

That would have been J. Howard.

Prior to that he also promised that a GST would never be introduced.

and then Meg Lees from the Democrats agreed to support a GST provided fresh food was exempt, left the room with a little smirk at how she was now a big player, the door closed and and Costello and Howard shrieked with laughter. That little deal killed the Democrats, and put GST on sanitary products and everything that dim, ignorant Meg didn't cover, which to my mind reveals the true purpose of the tax.

Consumption tax favours the rich which is why the rich like it. Flat income tax of 25% should pay for everything needed to run the society with fairness.
The rest of tax is vanity, vote buying and social engineering.

25 million spent to obtain a temporary seat on the gun runners table (oops 'UN Security Council'). Yes we really need tax increases to pay for that sort of folly don't we.

 

[goldpelican]

Are there any countries in the world with a flat income tax rate? It's often talked about as an ideal, but I don't know if it's been implemented anywhere.

 

[Argentum]

i thought UAE has flat income tax rate of 0%

 

[Big A.D.]

If that is true then broadening the GST base to include fresh fruit and vegetables is counter-productive because (a) regardless of age, it increases the tax burden on [poor] people, and (b) for older people, discouraging them from eating healthy food by taxing it to pay for the health care system is a bit silly - eating healthy food keeps pressure off the health care system in the first place.

Well, "poor" is a relative term and completely unnecessary to use, unless you want to bias the statement towards everyone having an obligation to pay whatever the government asks. Remove it and your statement makes objective sense.

Poor people of lower socio-economic status spend a greater percentage of their income on food. They've got a limited amount of money so they spend it on essentials rather than luxuries. Rich people of higher socio-economic status don't really buy more fresh fruit and vegetables than poor people of lower socio-economic status because there is only so much food it's physically possible to consume so expanding the GST to cover fruit and veg will hit people with lower incomes much harder that it will hit people on higher incomes.

The GST has a general problem with diminishing returns because consumption as a percentage of income decreases the higher the level of income is i.e. if you earn $40k/p.a. after income tax you'll probably spend most of it buying stuff, but if you earn $200k/p.a. after income tax you're more likely to spend, say, $80k on stuff and save or invest the rest of it.

As for a decline in revenue growth, you are talking about a decline in growth rate, but only the reason such a decline is problematic is because the rate of growth of government expenses is now outpacing its revenue. You are saying that government expenses and liabilities are growing faster than revenues. Again, that makes perfect sense and is why everyone is saying to reduce expenses. Thanks for clearing that up, much easier to see the problem in those terms.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Obviously the state of the economy has something to do with it as well, but if you're like some of the Boomers I know, you've already got enough shirts, shoes, kitchenware, TVs, computers, coffee tables and lawn ornaments to last you for a fair amount of time and you simply don't need to keep going out and buying new stuff.

 

[Clawhammer]

Turns out it's the Federal Independants Rob Oakshot and Tony Windsor whom have raised the GST monkey. Talking about raising it to 11%

 

[willrocks]

GST revenue isn't actually falling, GST revenue growth is falling.

In a nutshell, people are spending money on more GST-free stuff than they used to. It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear that the aging Boomer demographic has bought enough "stuff" and are now spending their money on GST-free health care and are stashing as much as they can away into savings and investments (which are also GST-free) to help pay the bills when they retire.

If that is true then broadening the GST base to include fresh fruit and vegetables is counter-productive because (a) regardless of age, it increases the tax burden on poor people, and (b) for older people, discouraging them from eating healthy food by taxing it to pay for the health care system is a bit silly - eating healthy food keeps pressure off the health care system in the first place.

And adding to GST will only make people buy less, buy second-had, buy at markets, or buy more stuff over the internet.

Increasing tax will only lead to less GST spending. Resulting in even less revenue. Wonder if they'll ever learn you can't tax your way out of this situation.

 

[wrcmad]

Poor people of lower socio-economic status spend a greater percentage of their income on food. They've got a limited amount of money so they spend it on essentials rather than luxuries. Rich people of higher socio-economic status don't really buy more fresh fruit and vegetables than poor people of lower socio-economic status because there is only so much food it's physically possible to consume so expanding the GST to cover fruit and veg will hit people with lower incomes much harder that it will hit people on higher incomes.

Although this debate has been had before, I'll add my 2c.

This cost of food argument might hold some sort of credibility if the poor people were not so heavily subsidised by the rich by way of FTB A & B, low income rebate, medicare, and the plathora of other BS subsidies that serve only as a dissincentive to better themselves.

 

[nonrecourse]

I was shocked but not surprised that a career politician could not concieve of the possibility of reducing expenditure. It was also interesting to note he seemed to lean towards the view that government employee job losses are a bad thing. So he comes to the view that we have no choice but to increase tax revenue and it is simply from that point on, a discussion of where the increased revenue comes from.

Doesn't matter if your a Liberal, Labor or Greens voter. These clowns are out to control you. I see it every day in my business. I call them the ticket clipers. Like leeches they are there to suck as much cash out of the sheeple as possible.

Whenever I speak to liberal politicians I remind them that John Howard was the highest taxing government until the current clowns came on the scene. They all love to promise what they cannot possibly deliver.

Its time sheeple started to confront them with the facts. When Kennett was in he emptied the mental institutions and sold off the SEC and a lot of other crown corporations. End Result after Kennett was dumped ? 10 years of hard Labour criminals and the state is in greater debt than before Kennett was elected.

So when Abbott gets in and balances the budget by selling off more public assets.... I say buggar that.. get rid of one third of the federal, state and council employees.... Send them out to get a real job that actually produces something.

Kind Regards
non recourse

 

[Fykus]

havent politicians ever heard of trying to get blood from a stone?

 

[bordsilver]

havent politicians ever heard of trying to get blood from a stone?

That's just being negative. Need to look forward, never backward; upward not forward; and always twirling, twirling towards freedom!


(Something like that )

 

[errol43]

I was shocked but not surprised that a career politician could not concieve of the possibility of reducing expenditure. It was also interesting to note he seemed to lean towards the view that government employee job losses are a bad thing. So he comes to the view that we have no choice but to increase tax revenue and it is simply from that point on, a discussion of where the increased revenue comes from.

Doesn't matter if your a Liberal, Labor or Greens voter. These clowns are out to control you. I see it every day in my business. I call them the ticket clipers. Like leeches they are there to suck as much cash out of the sheeple as possible.

Whenever I speak to liberal politicians I remind them that John Howard was the highest taxing government until the current clowns came on the scene. They all love to promise what they cannot possibly deliver.

Its time sheeple started to confront them with the facts. When Kennett was in he emptied the mental institutions and sold off the SEC and a lot of other crown corporations. End Result after Kennett was dumped ? 10 years of hard Labour criminals and the state is in greater debt than before Kennett was elected.

So when Abbott gets in and balances the budget by selling off more public assets.... I say buggar that.. get rid of one third of the federal, state and council employees.... Send them out to get a real job that actually produces something.

Kind Regards
non recourse

By Real Jobs, Do you mean Manufacturing Jobs, Retail Jobs. Tourist or Mining Jobs?

Regards Errol 43

 

[GoldenEgg]

Reecline in GST growth one of the largest reasons not yet mentioned much could be people taking more overseas holidays (and less tourists because of high AUD)
Didn't Labor jack up the airport departure tax within the past year or so? I heard something about it.

 

[GoldenEgg]

Turns out it's the Federal Independants Rob Oakshot and Tony Windsor whom have raised the GST monkey. Talking about raising it to 11%

Craig Thomson is more likely to retain his seat than those two bozos

 

[Fykus]

everytime i hear about oakshott doing something i facepalm and regret voting him into federal parliment originally when he got in (not the last election though).

FORGIVE ME, I DID NOT KNOW.