Golightly said:
Standard practice at most mints. Reduces die contamination mostly.
Exclusive to silverstackers electron microscope images of white spot
- Thread starter bron suchecki
- Start date
Standard practice at most mints. Reduces die contamination mostly.
silverstar1
New Member
goldpelican said:
Or blasting micro particles into the metal...
silverstar1
New Member
bron suchecki said:
Lots of laughs! Next will be moles planted to contaminate competetors metal, numismatic espionage .....
Thanks for the insight
silverstar1
New Member
The pictures seem like different kinds of contamination on each one , it would be interesting to know what dates and type of coins these were taken from.
barsenault
Well-Known Member
1for1 said:
I'd agree if they get riddled with spots. If they remain pristine for the life of the coin, then I think it is a worthy investment. All I know is they better fix the problem and fast. I know I'm not buying any more PM stuff until I have some certainty that this problem is solved.
silverstar1
New Member
1for1 said:
Its still a good investment, Remember the coins with white spot problems are few with Perth Mint , Chinese, German ect. , they seem to run in bad batches but most of these coins are pristine condition . OHH at least until you start looking at 100000 magnification
Nice thought silverstar ! this is the kind of thing im talking about . Have they changed the style of water traps on the compressors ?or still cleaning the traps out at the same intervals as before they upped production ?(Would need to be cleared/cleaned at more regular intervals) is there a build up of debri in the air lines ? Maybe need flushing/cleaning ? who knows we're all just guessing hopefully one will be a lucky guess.silverstar1 said:
mmissinglink
Active Member
1for1 said:
And yet, many sellers are making a very sweet profit on some high graded modern numismatic coins. Just goes to show that numismatic coins can be a good investment if you know what you are doing.
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Ghost Story
Active Member
I can get the spots off without scratching the coin but it also removes the silver gilt 
so doesn't really solve the problem but what it does prove is its a surface problem, did this with some RCM coins got the spots off but also the gilt.
so onwards we'll move
so doesn't really solve the problem but what it does prove is its a surface problem, did this with some RCM coins got the spots off but also the gilt.so onwards we'll move
1for1
Well-Known Member
mmissinglink said:
Id agree some are, yet they would be the minority. Like any market a savvy sophisticated investor can make money despite the odds being against them. Modern value added low mintage coins are hardly numismatic, it seems the meaning has been lost, much like the true meaning of inflation.
mmissinglink
Active Member
1for1 said:
Yes, "numismatic" has been used by the Perth Mint and some other mints, some coin collectors, and plenty of stackers to mean modern collector (coins that are not bullion coins but designed as collector coins) coins. "Numismatic" no longer means old, circulated money...but that definition was not a good definition anyway so I welcome a better definition and I think the way "numismatic" (and "semi-numismatic") is increasingly used today (to describe namely where a coin's value comes from or as Wikipedia describes, [numismatic value] "...refer(s) to the value in excess of the monetary value conferred by law, which is known as the "collector value." ) is a better way of defining "numismatic".
So I'm definitely going with the current, modern way the term numismatic (and semi-numismatic) is used. By that definition the Big Ben 100 Pound bullion coin which costs 100 Pounds to buy is not a numismatic or semi-numismatic coin.
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You guys had some really good questions and there is obviously some cluey stackers out there. I passed them on to our Chemist/Metallurgist and he'd like to answer them but he said he can't really say much without describing our processes and giving away our trade secrets (which means some of you had some really insightful observations). So apologies for his "unhelpfully vague" response below:
"The microscope images have varying magnification, but as a reference point the inclusion in image 2 is 10 m across. The formation of AgCl requires both silver and chloride to be present, once one of these has been consumed the reaction stops. Past inclusions have not always been compositionally the same. All of our processes are being looked at to determine what has changed recently to cause the issues we are experiencing."
"The microscope images have varying magnification, but as a reference point the inclusion in image 2 is 10 m across. The formation of AgCl requires both silver and chloride to be present, once one of these has been consumed the reaction stops. Past inclusions have not always been compositionally the same. All of our processes are being looked at to determine what has changed recently to cause the issues we are experiencing."
Having worked in the water purification industry for a number of years my money is on a water borne contaminant.
You would be amazed at the amount of heavy metals dumped in our supplies to provide "clean drink water" (I would prefer clearish looking as a more apt term). Sodium Flouride - a waste product from industry banned from being dumped/buried is now being sold as good for us and added to water supplies (PS its Calcium Flouride which is the good fluoride for bones, teeth, etc).
Aluminium sulfate, iron and magnesium are used as flocculants to settle sediment to the bottom of water supplies...etc.etc. The dosages used vary council to council and even these are a lot of the time done by eye.
Heavy metals can only be removed from water via reverse osmosis.
All in all Im glad its being investigated and wish you well in eliminating the issue.
You would be amazed at the amount of heavy metals dumped in our supplies to provide "clean drink water" (I would prefer clearish looking as a more apt term). Sodium Flouride - a waste product from industry banned from being dumped/buried is now being sold as good for us and added to water supplies (PS its Calcium Flouride which is the good fluoride for bones, teeth, etc).
Aluminium sulfate, iron and magnesium are used as flocculants to settle sediment to the bottom of water supplies...etc.etc. The dosages used vary council to council and even these are a lot of the time done by eye.
Heavy metals can only be removed from water via reverse osmosis.
All in all Im glad its being investigated and wish you well in eliminating the issue.
mmissinglink
Active Member
Great info StoicPhoenix...I have a strong suspicion that you are right about the problem of the heavy metals in the water supply being the root of the problem. The good news, if you are correct, is that this problem can be prevented by measures that the mint takes.
I agree with those who have stated publicly here in the forum and in private to me that it doesn't make sense to buy higher premium silver coins which come from mints that have not addressed the problem of the milk spots and instead to buy low premium bullion coins like American Silver Eagles or 90% silver coins or whatever the low cost / low premium coins available to you in your region. After all, the reason I would want to pay a high premium is because I am expecting to receive higher quality silver coins for that higher premium paid. If these higher cost coins are going to develop spots, I am not going to buy them.
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I agree with those who have stated publicly here in the forum and in private to me that it doesn't make sense to buy higher premium silver coins which come from mints that have not addressed the problem of the milk spots and instead to buy low premium bullion coins like American Silver Eagles or 90% silver coins or whatever the low cost / low premium coins available to you in your region. After all, the reason I would want to pay a high premium is because I am expecting to receive higher quality silver coins for that higher premium paid. If these higher cost coins are going to develop spots, I am not going to buy them.
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barsenault
Well-Known Member
I wonder if reverse osmosis or distilled water would cause this problem...they are probably using regular water, and as I mentioned in an earlier post. I've used a distiller, and I can tell you, 'clear water' goes in, and after several jugs of distilled water, the crud, sand, and metals left behind is nasty. I can't remember the last time I've drank tap water. No thanks. I'd have imagine this has something to do with why spots are happening.
Oh, and for the record, I've gone back to buying eagles. I got rid of a few thousand of them almost 2 years ago...but now with spot so low, AND, more importantly, this issue of white spots being a problem for PM mint HIGH/HIGHER premium coins, I've gone back to stacking eagles. Until I know they have a handle on it, I'm not buying PM coins. Sorry Bron & team. HOWEVER, thanks for being transparent, and being determined to correct the problem. But I can't lose money in my investment of coins. The premium of a lunar goat is like 12.00 over spot vs. a few bucks for other govt issued coins...to me, it's not worth the chance of having that 12.00 get wiped out due to spots.
Oh, and for the record, I've gone back to buying eagles. I got rid of a few thousand of them almost 2 years ago...but now with spot so low, AND, more importantly, this issue of white spots being a problem for PM mint HIGH/HIGHER premium coins, I've gone back to stacking eagles. Until I know they have a handle on it, I'm not buying PM coins. Sorry Bron & team. HOWEVER, thanks for being transparent, and being determined to correct the problem. But I can't lose money in my investment of coins. The premium of a lunar goat is like 12.00 over spot vs. a few bucks for other govt issued coins...to me, it's not worth the chance of having that 12.00 get wiped out due to spots.
bron suchecki said:
Bron the silver part we get but chloride ? I presumed you are using de-ionised water as tap water has plenty chloride ions. You know the basic experiment of adding silver nitrate to tap water tuns a clear liquid milky as insoluble silver chloride. I have no doubt at all that this is the problem, no particulate or heavy metal issue, simply silver chloride precipitate. We also know the photosensitive nature of silver chloride and that must explain the time delay. Clearly, future production is an issue to be resolved by the PM manufacturing but most of the SS members are interested in a solution to the many damaged PM and other coins they hold. If the PM was selling Lunar coins or Kookaburras at spot+ few dollars as does the Royal Canadian mint for their maples, people would be more understanding - a simple bullion product. But large premiums imply superior product and spots all over my coins is not equivalent to a superior product. I am certainly unimpressed by the spots all over my 1/2 kg PM Ox !!! My observation was the 2009 was a particularly bad year for the spot problem... I think people need an explanation with some resolution. Otherwise I agree with the feeling of SS moving back to bars or cheaper bullion products.
