^^^
Dmitry Orlov has done a lot of that work from a perspective of Russia after Glasnost & Peristroika
Dmitry Orlov has done a lot of that work from a perspective of Russia after Glasnost & Peristroika
Do you believe PM's can save you in a "doomsday crash"?
- Thread starter TreasureHunter
- Start date
I cant bater with my self. I cant barter with something absolutely nobody will want. It would be alot more easy to barter with leaves. The only way u could ever barter with PMs is if the government or who ever is our rulerOld Codger said:
at the time decalred it money. Go down the street right now and try to trade 1oz of gold for $200 worth of stuff with a random person. Its not going to happen. People dont understand anything about PMs so how is the population going to learn in a shtf? it has to be declaired money even in a shtf for people to start using it. And even then it wont be used.
This is earth. Everything we use today comes from earth. In a shtf earth will still be here. So everything can be replaced once its used. There will always be new "consumables"
Mr Medved said:
As long as you have legal title, there's always an avenue to get it back...eventually (it might take generations).
There's a move in Germany to repatriate former West Germans back to their properties their families were evicted from during the annexation by the Soviets.
Saimilar thing happened in France after the War when people just rebuilt on vacant land they thought belonged to dead owners. Surviving family members with deeds had the land returned to them. Those Palastinians that still have title documents for land originally held in the occupied lands will I suspect eventually get their land back.
Tell that to white Zimbabwean farmers over the last few decades.Old Codger said:
Context matters. It's no point saying 'stack this' or 'hard assets' that when the best option is to get up and leave... then hard assets aren't great unless portable (i.e., gold).
@Nugget, I started reading Orlov and Ferfal years ago. Orlov provides interesting cultural insights, Ferfal provides interesting practical insights; both support mobility (Orlov lives on a boat; Ferfal moved to Europe).
BiGs
Active Member
TreasureHunter said:Hi,
Do you believe silver, gold etc. can give you financial security if a "doomsday crash" happens? (let it be any major crisis: banking crises, severe recession, hyperinflation, euro collapse or eurozone contraction, etc.).
Considering last year's huge drop in gold's and silver's price...
...do you believe your stack will help you if a major economic/financial crisis erupts? (I didn't say necessarily hyperinflation, there are many other possible scenarios as well...)
[YES] or [NO]?
No. They cannot "save you" because they have no life supporting qualities.
Maybe the question could be a bit more specific.
No.
In a real SHTF environment, gold and silver aren't much use. During the road to sanity, which may take some time, if it happens at all (in a doomsday scenario), it may or may not be useful.
Gold and silver are representations of value due to their rarity and effort put into their extraction and refinement.
If you stack silver for a doomsday scenario then it's hope that history will rhyme with the past and they will once again be sort out by the masses. So be careful as soon as someone knows about your stack, then groups will organise and simply take it from you. Humans in the face of reality are capable of unbelievable acts of cruelty, it's nice living with rose coloured glasses but beware of the evil that humans are capable, it defies belief how totally and completely evil the VAST majority can be.
Sociocentric identity (social proof) is an amazingly powerful and irresistible force. Just like the social engineer of groups like the military, society, police, bankers, pop culture. All engineered.
If we don't have a doomsday and it's a "mild" SHTF then under that circumstance once calm has been somewhat restored and we transition to another system, likely microchipped, there will be room during the transition to use gold and silver to make purchases. It is possible that the "backing" of microchipped currency will be gold. A brave new world indeed but a likely one with current trends.
In a real SHTF environment, gold and silver aren't much use. During the road to sanity, which may take some time, if it happens at all (in a doomsday scenario), it may or may not be useful.
Gold and silver are representations of value due to their rarity and effort put into their extraction and refinement.
If you stack silver for a doomsday scenario then it's hope that history will rhyme with the past and they will once again be sort out by the masses. So be careful as soon as someone knows about your stack, then groups will organise and simply take it from you. Humans in the face of reality are capable of unbelievable acts of cruelty, it's nice living with rose coloured glasses but beware of the evil that humans are capable, it defies belief how totally and completely evil the VAST majority can be.
Sociocentric identity (social proof) is an amazingly powerful and irresistible force. Just like the social engineer of groups like the military, society, police, bankers, pop culture. All engineered.
If we don't have a doomsday and it's a "mild" SHTF then under that circumstance once calm has been somewhat restored and we transition to another system, likely microchipped, there will be room during the transition to use gold and silver to make purchases. It is possible that the "backing" of microchipped currency will be gold. A brave new world indeed but a likely one with current trends.
worldbubble
Active Member
none of the people evicted by bolsheviks got their property back ... and they will not get it ... so your "always" doesn't work hereClawhammer said:
worldbubble said:
Just settle petal... I wrote "there's always an avenue to get it back" read what I wrote... not what you think I wrote. It about not rolling over and giving up.
Mr Medved said:
Not if I have any say in it.. just kidding. But I guess landrights and Mabo have made an in-road. Like I said...it might take generations...and most aboriginal peoples around the world never recieved title deeds for the the land they inhabited in a western/european sense which is the case of the modern post-war examples I gave.
bricklayer
New Member
Interesting original question.
I'm actually writing a book about this at the moment ... so I can give you a complete answer in about a year's time!
Short answer is: it depends. And what would you hope/expect to use your PMs for?
It depends on what the exact scenario is you're talking about, it depends on how it plays out, it depends on what part of the world / what culture you're in, it depends on a whole range of cultural aspects that may become very fluid, and very volatile, during the period in question.
And it depends how long the lead-in time is for the scenario, how long the scenario is that you're planning for, as well as the level of impact on people's lives: natural-disasters can have minimal warning, and possibly catastrophic consequences, but be fairly short-lived, with quick recovery times. Some financial crises can be fairly short-lived with minimal impacts, while others will be longer-lasting with massive impacts.
If you're looking to the broader range of variables that intersect with financial collapse, such as diminishing energy returns, and compromised environmental systems, then you're looking at a different set of assumptions, and a different possible path for how things could play out ... James Kunstler's 'The long emergency', Chris Martenson's 'The crash course', and John Michael Greer's 'The long descent' offer some scenario planning heuristic tools for this.
As for solutions, I think we need to distinguish between money, barter, and trade goods. Some of these can buy the others; some can't. But they're all used for different purposes.
In a serious post-SHTF scenario, my guess is you're unlikely to use PMs for all transactions: the bulk of transactions are more likely to be completed with barter goods (which act closer to money, in that they're divisible, portable, and generally fungible), trade goods (which tend to be bigger and act less like money), local currencies and energy/time/credit systems, and gift economy / mutual aid contexts (such as barn-raisings and village harvesting of days of old).
The tired old 'you can eat food, but you can't eat PMs' barely bears responding to: if you're really planning on preparing for any kind of SHTF scenario, then you'll not only have food, but also likely food to give to others. PMs can be used to buy food in the future, but given their high value, would be better used for larger, less-common, purchases, probably for assets (such as a horse), rather than consumables such as food (which can be produced locally, and traded for with other food or barter goods).
In terms of what PMs could be used for, I think it's worth thinking about onset, duration, and aftermath/'post' situations. For example, if you needed to suddenly get out of town in a hurry for whatever reason at the onset of a crisis, some gold may well help purchase someone's unused vehicle, a plane ticket, a bribe through a checkpoint, etc. This has happened before, and in living memory.
During a long-term scenario, PMs could be used for purchasing major assets used to ride out the storm, or acquire an income-producing asset or means of production for a new vocation. And, if we are indeed headed for a 'permanent emergency', or 'decomplexification' scenario, then PMs are likely to do what they have for 3000 years: act as a store of wealth, allow for flexibility, possibly become their own form of circulating money, and so on.
As for 'would they really act as circulating money'? If you genuinely believe in the historical role of PMs as money, and would like for them to be able to play this role in a serious, long-term SHTF scenario, then what steps do you think *you* can take to make this more likely to happen?
Giving PMs as gifts to friends and family, regularly buying bullion coins from larger bullion dealers and onselling them at local coin shops so as to ensure a local familiarity and supply, organising informational displays at your local (and local school) library, buying enough 'extra' coins so that you could float a local economy in your local community ... there are many possible steps you could take now, in an ongoing way, and during a crisis, that could help in this transition ... and chances are good that without going this extra mile, if you simply rely on your small personal stack somehow kick-starting an entire local economy, then you might have a difficult time.
Hope that's of some interest ... and I'll let you know when the book is out!
I'm actually writing a book about this at the moment ... so I can give you a complete answer in about a year's time!
Short answer is: it depends. And what would you hope/expect to use your PMs for?
It depends on what the exact scenario is you're talking about, it depends on how it plays out, it depends on what part of the world / what culture you're in, it depends on a whole range of cultural aspects that may become very fluid, and very volatile, during the period in question.
And it depends how long the lead-in time is for the scenario, how long the scenario is that you're planning for, as well as the level of impact on people's lives: natural-disasters can have minimal warning, and possibly catastrophic consequences, but be fairly short-lived, with quick recovery times. Some financial crises can be fairly short-lived with minimal impacts, while others will be longer-lasting with massive impacts.
If you're looking to the broader range of variables that intersect with financial collapse, such as diminishing energy returns, and compromised environmental systems, then you're looking at a different set of assumptions, and a different possible path for how things could play out ... James Kunstler's 'The long emergency', Chris Martenson's 'The crash course', and John Michael Greer's 'The long descent' offer some scenario planning heuristic tools for this.
As for solutions, I think we need to distinguish between money, barter, and trade goods. Some of these can buy the others; some can't. But they're all used for different purposes.
In a serious post-SHTF scenario, my guess is you're unlikely to use PMs for all transactions: the bulk of transactions are more likely to be completed with barter goods (which act closer to money, in that they're divisible, portable, and generally fungible), trade goods (which tend to be bigger and act less like money), local currencies and energy/time/credit systems, and gift economy / mutual aid contexts (such as barn-raisings and village harvesting of days of old).
The tired old 'you can eat food, but you can't eat PMs' barely bears responding to: if you're really planning on preparing for any kind of SHTF scenario, then you'll not only have food, but also likely food to give to others. PMs can be used to buy food in the future, but given their high value, would be better used for larger, less-common, purchases, probably for assets (such as a horse), rather than consumables such as food (which can be produced locally, and traded for with other food or barter goods).
In terms of what PMs could be used for, I think it's worth thinking about onset, duration, and aftermath/'post' situations. For example, if you needed to suddenly get out of town in a hurry for whatever reason at the onset of a crisis, some gold may well help purchase someone's unused vehicle, a plane ticket, a bribe through a checkpoint, etc. This has happened before, and in living memory.
During a long-term scenario, PMs could be used for purchasing major assets used to ride out the storm, or acquire an income-producing asset or means of production for a new vocation. And, if we are indeed headed for a 'permanent emergency', or 'decomplexification' scenario, then PMs are likely to do what they have for 3000 years: act as a store of wealth, allow for flexibility, possibly become their own form of circulating money, and so on.
As for 'would they really act as circulating money'? If you genuinely believe in the historical role of PMs as money, and would like for them to be able to play this role in a serious, long-term SHTF scenario, then what steps do you think *you* can take to make this more likely to happen?
Giving PMs as gifts to friends and family, regularly buying bullion coins from larger bullion dealers and onselling them at local coin shops so as to ensure a local familiarity and supply, organising informational displays at your local (and local school) library, buying enough 'extra' coins so that you could float a local economy in your local community ... there are many possible steps you could take now, in an ongoing way, and during a crisis, that could help in this transition ... and chances are good that without going this extra mile, if you simply rely on your small personal stack somehow kick-starting an entire local economy, then you might have a difficult time.
Hope that's of some interest ... and I'll let you know when the book is out!
Are you really a bricklayer? 
bricklayer said:Interesting original question.
I'm actually writing a book about this at the moment ... so I can give you a complete answer in about a year's time!
Short answer is: it depends. And what would you hope/expect to use your PMs for?
It depends on what the exact scenario is you're talking about, it depends on how it plays out, it depends on what part of the world / what culture you're in, it depends on a whole range of cultural aspects that may become very fluid, and very volatile, during the period in question.
And it depends how long the lead-in time is for the scenario, how long the scenario is that you're planning for, as well as the level of impact on people's lives: natural-disasters can have minimal warning, and possibly catastrophic consequences, but be fairly short-lived, with quick recovery times. Some financial crises can be fairly short-lived with minimal impacts, while others will be longer-lasting with massive impacts.
If you're looking to the broader range of variables that intersect with financial collapse, such as diminishing energy returns, and compromised environmental systems, then you're looking at a different set of assumptions, and a different possible path for how things could play out ... James Kunstler's 'The long emergency', Chris Martenson's 'The crash course', and John Michael Greer's 'The long descent' offer some scenario planning heuristic tools for this.
As for solutions, I think we need to distinguish between money, barter, and trade goods. Some of these can buy the others; some can't. But they're all used for different purposes.
In a serious post-SHTF scenario, my guess is you're unlikely to use PMs for all transactions: the bulk of transactions are more likely to be completed with barter goods (which act closer to money, in that they're divisible, portable, and generally fungible), trade goods (which tend to be bigger and act less like money), local currencies and energy/time/credit systems, and gift economy / mutual aid contexts (such as barn-raisings and village harvesting of days of old).
The tired old 'you can eat food, but you can't eat PMs' barely bears responding to: if you're really planning on preparing for any kind of SHTF scenario, then you'll not only have food, but also likely food to give to others. PMs can be used to buy food in the future, but given their high value, would be better used for larger, less-common, purchases, probably for assets (such as a horse), rather than consumables such as food (which can be produced locally, and traded for with other food or barter goods).
In terms of what PMs could be used for, I think it's worth thinking about onset, duration, and aftermath/'post' situations. For example, if you needed to suddenly get out of town in a hurry for whatever reason at the onset of a crisis, some gold may well help purchase someone's unused vehicle, a plane ticket, a bribe through a checkpoint, etc. This has happened before, and in living memory.
During a long-term scenario, PMs could be used for purchasing major assets used to ride out the storm, or acquire an income-producing asset or means of production for a new vocation. And, if we are indeed headed for a 'permanent emergency', or 'decomplexification' scenario, then PMs are likely to do what they have for 3000 years: act as a store of wealth, allow for flexibility, possibly become their own form of circulating money, and so on.
As for 'would they really act as circulating money'? If you genuinely believe in the historical role of PMs as money, and would like for them to be able to play this role in a serious, long-term SHTF scenario, then what steps do you think *you* can take to make this more likely to happen?
Giving PMs as gifts to friends and family, regularly buying bullion coins from larger bullion dealers and onselling them at local coin shops so as to ensure a local familiarity and supply, organising informational displays at your local (and local school) library, buying enough 'extra' coins so that you could float a local economy in your local community ... there are many possible steps you could take now, in an ongoing way, and during a crisis, that could help in this transition ... and chances are good that without going this extra mile, if you simply rely on your small personal stack somehow kick-starting an entire local economy, then you might have a difficult time.
Hope that's of some interest ... and I'll let you know when the book is out!
Well, I figured that if anything happenned to the Aussie Dollar then it would be worth having something like gold and silver coins. Beyond that I can't see them being that useful, if it was a Doomsyear
A Greek relative shortly after World War 2 sold all her sovereigns during their hyperinflation period because she coulddn't believe how many Drachmas her gold would buy. A week or so later she realised her mistake when the money kept inflating.
An interesting point was raised at the Brisbane Silver Stackers Meet-Up, which just goes to show how important these meetings are...
Central Banks want to own gold (they are currently buying it apparently), gold is fairly expensive.
Central Banks can issue money, issuing lots of money will lead to hyperinflation.
Hyperinflation means that you bank account will be worthless but your gold will be worth a fortune. So you swap your gold for a wheelbarrow of fiat in order to eat, the central banks now possess all the gold and you are left with a wheelbarrow of paper with the ink still wet on it.
They will transfer all the gold into their own coffers and when it is all in their posession they will hit the reset button, redenominate or revalue the money, you can get 1 'New' Dollar for each million of the old dollars, the banks will have saved the economy and gold ownership by the public will dissappear without any requirement to confiscate it.
Anyone who has gold at the end will now be able to sell it for 'New' dollars at whatever price they can get for it, but if your family was starving would you hold onto your last gold sovereign in the hopes that you could buy a car for it in the Brave New World?
A Greek relative shortly after World War 2 sold all her sovereigns during their hyperinflation period because she coulddn't believe how many Drachmas her gold would buy. A week or so later she realised her mistake when the money kept inflating.
An interesting point was raised at the Brisbane Silver Stackers Meet-Up, which just goes to show how important these meetings are...
Central Banks want to own gold (they are currently buying it apparently), gold is fairly expensive.
Central Banks can issue money, issuing lots of money will lead to hyperinflation.
Hyperinflation means that you bank account will be worthless but your gold will be worth a fortune. So you swap your gold for a wheelbarrow of fiat in order to eat, the central banks now possess all the gold and you are left with a wheelbarrow of paper with the ink still wet on it.
They will transfer all the gold into their own coffers and when it is all in their posession they will hit the reset button, redenominate or revalue the money, you can get 1 'New' Dollar for each million of the old dollars, the banks will have saved the economy and gold ownership by the public will dissappear without any requirement to confiscate it.
Anyone who has gold at the end will now be able to sell it for 'New' dollars at whatever price they can get for it, but if your family was starving would you hold onto your last gold sovereign in the hopes that you could buy a car for it in the Brave New World?
In a financial crash yes - having anything of value outside of the collapsing financial system would be helpful.
But a financial system collapse is not a society collapse.
Eg Cyprus and Iceland.
Banking systems have collapsed before but life managed to continue without going into chaos.
But a financial system collapse is not a society collapse.
Eg Cyprus and Iceland.
Banking systems have collapsed before but life managed to continue without going into chaos.
Native title is a scam perpetrated by the Crown:Clawhammer said:
http://www.exfacie.com/?q=guest_post_native_title_exposed
Tribes had systems of hereditary land ownership. This was documented by the British in the 19th century. Didn't stop the British from plundering (as did the Bolshies, just in a different manner). There was a system of land titles in Zimbabwe, didn't stop white farmers from being killed (after the land was dispossessed from the blacks) and forced from the land.
No asset is safe in all scenarios. It requires context.
bricklayer
New Member
Nugget said:Are you really a bricklayer?
Yep. Small, shiny bricks.
Clawhammer said:
My siblings and I have title to some properties in Turkish held North Cyprus. We are not holding our breath. If Turkey joins the EU, it has promised compensation. Waiting...
The Road Home
Member
It will only serve as a preservation of wealth AFTER the dust settles.