bordsilver said:
not that its anyone's business but what is the PREMIUM/DISCOUNT to spot for the gold dust?
Demand Physical!
- Thread starter spdz
- Start date
not that its anyone's business but what is the PREMIUM/DISCOUNT to spot for the gold dust?
bordsilver said:
Dates range, but most of them are in 1700-1800 AD range.
Weights range as well, and most in that foto are between maybe 0.6 grams - 3 grams or so.
All minted in Constantinople ( written on coins in Arabic script, and other Ottoman mints trade at much higher prices ie. Edirne/Adrionople (Turkey), Baghdad ( Iraq), Kosovo, Manastir ( Macedonia ), etc and there is also Misir ( Old name for Egypt ).
Also minted during the reigns of different Sultans ( 36 in total !? ) their names are written on the coins, and sometimes their father's name as well, not all Sultans minted coins but most did, and Sultan Sulayman the Magnificent probably carries the highest premium to spot. Mainly due to 2 reasons, he ruled in the 1500s so the coins will be old but also because
of the fact that the people have always liked him.
Black_Sun said:Yes siree... this beautiful coin has been properly assayed, after a small sample was taken via a drill.
http://forums.silverstackers.com/uploads/3854_7886434_2_l.jpg
and the owner of this coin, now feels so much better, because all of his coins have been properly drilled and assayed.
So... in the interests of all SS, I am now putting out an ** Emergency Call ** for all silver & gold & platinum coins and bars, to be properly assayed. We all need to be 100% certain of what it is that we are holding.
One drill hole is good, but as copper staining shows us, sometimes impurities are concentrated in a certain area of the coin; hence in order to get the best assay results, 5-10 drill holes are recommended - per coin.
Remember folks, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." After a while, you learn to appreciate the beauty of drilled coins, because you know what it is that you hold.
Does this drilling affect the value when you trade?
Enhance or diminish?
Kawa said:
As Black_Sun and I have told everyone who has PM'd us, being able to truly trust that your coins and bars are truly PM's can only enhance the value! I haven't formally agreed this with BS, but as you are such a great stacker, send us your stack and we'll drill yours for free
Remember, 5-10 holes per coin/bar are recommended as some of those counterfeiters are pretty sneaky.
That's a shame about the double eagle - it was a Carson City mint.
Just in case anyone isn't clear, coins get drilled for jewellery, not assay.
Just in case anyone isn't clear, coins get drilled for jewellery, not assay.
Sounds like buying a coin off the Royal Silver Company may have more cred than your advice LOLbordsilver said:Kawa said:
As Black_Sun and I have told everyone who has PM'd us, being able to truly trust that your coins and bars are truly PM's can only enhance the value! I haven't formally agreed this with BS, but as you are such a great stacker, send us your stack and we'll drill yours for free
Thanks for the offer anyway.
Kawa said:Sounds like buying a coin off the Royal Silver Company may have more cred than your advice LOLbordsilver said:Kawa said:
As Black_Sun and I have told everyone who has PM'd us, being able to truly trust that your coins and bars are truly PM's can only enhance the value! I haven't formally agreed this with BS, but as you are such a great stacker, send us your stack and we'll drill yours for free
Thanks for the offer anyway.
Hey, if you can't two guys who's initials are BS who can you trust? :lol:
Black_Sun said:Unless you have every single gram of gold you "take physical possession of" thoroughly assayed, you can't be 100% sure that you're being duped. You need multiple assays. Haven't you ever heard of incorrect assay results, as a result of a laboratory mistake? Happens frequently
http://www.miningweekly.com/article/venus-says-yalgoo-assay-lab-results-completely-wrong-2011-11-09
http://www.blackthornresources.com.au/uploads/documents/ASX_ANN_Gold Grade Error_20101213.pdf
You can be sure if your metal is coming from a place which has its assay lab constantly tested, see the LBMA's Proficiency Testing Scheme http://www.lbma.org.uk/assets/Alch6707connelly.pdf
bron suchecki said:
Thanks for this Bron. The Alchemist is a good magazine.
However, I'm curious about some of the Perth Mint 9999 coins which get copper spots (aka "blood spots" as copper is a "red metal"). Here's a good example here:
http://forums.silverstackers.com/message-380375.html#p380375
1: Do you have any statistics as to the % of 9999 coins that get afflicted?
2: Has this % declined over the years or remained steady? If it has declined, why?
3: Would storing the coin in a moist environment hasten the development of copper stains?
Thanks.
Yippe-Ki-Ya
New Member
Black_Sun said:
i'll take my chances with PAMP bars thank you very much
Yippe-Ki-Ya
New Member
Black_Sun said:"A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". When you apply this aphorism to precious metals, it means that one ounce of assayed gold is worth two ounces of unassayed gold.
In order to assay your gold, you only need to throw worthless fiat (paper spoiled by ink) at the assayer. And to establish 100% certainty in the quality of the gold we hold, the amount of worthless fiat we need to spend is meaningless.
PS: And don't even mention XRF folks, because you should all know by now how unreliable it is.
you dont need gold or silver to be "assayed" to know 100% for sure that it is pure.
1. you know what the density should be.
2. you can measure the exact volume.
3. this should tell you what the exact mass should be.
weigh it and if this does not equal the amount in (3) then you've gotta problem - else Bob's ya uncle ...
Obviously - depending on the sizes of the metal samples you wish to "self assay" - you would need to get appriately accurate instruments for measuring the volume and the mass to get acceptable accuracy.
Yippe-Ki-Ya said:
However, in the Hong Kong case (cited in FT.com), it said, "In one case, executives discovered a pure gold coating that masked a complex alloy with similar properties to gold. The fake gold included a significant amount of bullion about 51 per cent of the total alloyed with seven other metals: osmium, iridium, ruthenium, copper, nickel, iron, and rhodium." The article continues, "In most cases, the fakes passed basic scrutiny, only to be revealed later by more sophisticated tests involving high temperatures and chemicals."
This fraud fooled goldsmiths and gold jewellers.
Yippe-Ki-Ya
New Member
thatguy said:
if the 15kg bar is from a reputable source then i wouldn't be drilling there either...
a simple volume/mass test will suffice to give you and idea if you have reason to be worried, but quite frankly i wouldn't worry about measuring it too accurately as the chances of a reputable source adding small quantities of impurities (like lead) into a silver bar would definately NOT be worth the risk to their reputation.
If the bar was 50% silver / 50 lead then one would for example be able to pick this up with a simple mass/volume test.
Again - no reputable source of silver bars would take this chance .... just not worth it!
Sure - when silver hits $1000/ounce then i would be really careful buying 5kg bars and bigger, but at that point would probably only be buying small stuff anyway and would be carrying out mass/volume tests of my own.
Yippe-Ki-Ya
New Member
Black_Sun said:
Point taken - although i'd still love to do a bit of maths and work out for myself whether any combination of those metals mentioned could ever duplicate the density of gold...
but for now i'll accept that example.
I'll bet though it wasn't a PAMP bar
Black_Sun said:
That's getting a bit techo for me. I believe it results from silver particles depositing on the surface of the blank before minting and then they get embedded into the surface. The red is the silver oxidising or something (not sure if moisture contributes to it). I think our older coins had this problem from time to time because the gold and silver minting occured in the same room/area or same equipment. It should not be common now as we separated the gold and silver minting production lines as one way of minimising this problem. That was done quite a while ago which is why I'm a big vague.
The coins are still 9999 pure gold so should not affect its gold value but obviously may affect its collectible value.
Just consider it as you getting a bit of bonus silver with your gold coin
bron suchecki said:Black_Sun said:
That's getting a bit techo for me. I believe it results from silver particles depositing on the surface of the blank before minting and then they get embedded into the surface. The red is the silver oxidising or something (not sure if moisture contributes to it). I think our older coins had this problem from time to time because the gold and silver minting occured in the same room/area. It should not be common now as we separated the gold and silver minting as one way of minimising this problem.
The coins are still 9999 pure gold so should affect its gold value but obviously may affect its collectible value.
Just consider it as you getting a bit of bonus silver with your gold coin
Whoa... that's a surprise. I thought it was copper, rather than silver. Cheers.
Dogmatix
Active Member
Black_Sun said:bron suchecki said:Black_Sun said:
That's getting a bit techo for me. I believe it results from silver particles depositing on the surface of the blank before minting and then they get embedded into the surface. The red is the silver oxidising or something (not sure if moisture contributes to it). I think our older coins had this problem from time to time because the gold and silver minting occured in the same room/area. It should not be common now as we separated the gold and silver minting as one way of minimising this problem.
The coins are still 9999 pure gold so should affect its gold value but obviously may affect its collectible value.
Just consider it as you getting a bit of bonus silver with your gold coin
Whoa... that's a surprise. I thought it was copper, rather than silver. Cheers.
I thought it was copper too?
I was thinking about it - if a coin is made from 99.99% of gold, then the other 0.01% non-gold substance might sink or float on the molten gold sheet, bringing it to the surface (top or bottom, i assume top due to gold's density).
Was just a thought. Because I agree with your line of thinking earlier - if only 0.01% of the coin is non-gold, then what is the likelihood it would be on the surface, rather than in the middle. And, what is the likelihood it would be concentrated in one spot?
But Bron's info changes all of that
Thread reopened.
And yet two more recently exposed precious metals Ponzi schemes:
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/mineweb/en/page34?oid=157095&sn=Detail&pid=102055
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/mineweb/en/page32?oid=156210&sn=Detail&pid=34
4 arraigned in big bucks, precious metals bullion Ponzi-scheme
A broker--previously disciplined by the CFTC and the National Futures Association in a 1993 commodities options scheme--is again facing charges for a Ponzi-scheme involving precious metals bullion investment.
Author: Dorothy Kosich, Posted: Thursday , 16 Aug 2012
RENO (MINEWEB) -
Four men were scheduled to be arraigned Wednesday before a federal magistrate in Miami, Florida, on charges of conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud in connection with a precious metals bullion investment scheme.
The indictment was brought by federal and state agencies including the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida, the FBI, the U.S. Postal Inspector Service and the State of Florida's Office of Financial Regulation.
Arthur John Schlecht, 53, of Boone, North Carolina, but formerly of Miami-Dade County, Bart Gomer, 66, of Sunrise, Florida, Ricardo Jorge Padron, 52, and Carlos Rodriguez, both of Miami, were accused of engaging in a long-term conspiracy to commit fraud through their operation of three corporations, Global Bullion Tracking Group, WJS Funding, d/b/a Capital Asset Management, and Certified Inc., d/b/a Certified Clearing.
These businesses claimed to be investment brokerage firms offering investors the opportunity to invest in gold, silver, platinum, and palladium bullion, which would be stored for the investors in depository vaults.
The indictment claims that, instead of purchasing the physical bullion as promised, the defendants "merely established investment accounts for Capital Asset Management with a broker/dealer in London and used the account to purchase derivative contract investments in precious metals but never actually purchased any physical metal for the investors."
The defendants allegedly used investors' funds for their personal benefit. "In this way, certain defendants allegedly diverted millions of dollars of investors' funds to Arthur Schlecht, his family and third parties to pay for, among other things, maid services, personal tax obligations, salary, social security contributions, home and vacation home construction, landscaping, remodeling, interior furnishings, automobile purchase, restaurant dining, personal travel expenses, clothing and jewelry," said a news release filed by U.S. Attorney Wilfredo A. Ferrer, FBI Acting Special Agent in Charge Jeffrey C. Manzanec, Postal Inspector in Charge, Henry Gutierrez, and Linda B. Charity, interim commissioner, State of Florida's Office of Financial Regulation.
"Thereafter, in order to continue to operate and conceal the companies' insolvency, the defendants engaged in a Ponzi-scheme, through which they used new investors' money to pay off previous inventors and to cover operating expenses," the officials claimed.
When the alleged Ponzi-scheme collapsed, Global Bullion Trading Group, Capital Assessment Management, and Certified, Inc., all filed for bankruptcy.
Ironically, Commodity Futures Trading Commission records reveal Schlecht was the subject of a consent order entered in July 1996 by the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida, which ordered a permanent injunction against Schlecht and his Concorde Trading Group. The CFTC claimed that Concorde reportedly committed fraud, in the course of soliciting customers through telemarketing to purchase options on commodities, specifically oil and gas.
Concorde and Schlecht were ordered by the court to pay $1.5 million in restitution to former Concorde customers.
A National Futures Association complaint filed on Aug. 18, 1993, alleged that Concorde traded over 2,800 customer accounts "and that over 90 percent of these customers lost all or substantially all of their money, while Concorde collected $12.8 million in commissions.
[AND]
Esteemed son of the south pleads guilty in $90.1m silver Ponzi scheme
Thanks to a huge score in non-existent silver, Ronnie Gene Wilson may qualify for the hall of shame in the brotherhood of rascally southern con-men and flim-flam men.
Author: Dorothy Kosich, Posted: Wednesday , 01 Aug 2012
RENO (MINEWEB) -
A former Anderson County, South Carolina councilman and past national commander of the Sons of Confederate Veterans entered a guilty plea in U.S. District Court in connection with a Ponzi scheme in which an estimated 945 investors in 16 states were duped into investing a total of $90.1 million in alleged silver contracts.
In a complaint filed in the U.S. District Court in South Carolina, the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission said Ronnie Gene Wilson, 64, of Easley operated a Ponzi scheme through his company Atlantic Bullion & Coin, Inc. since "at least 2001 through February 29, 2012."
"As part of their Ponzi scheme, Wilson and AB&C....fraudulently offered contracts of sale of silver bullion, a commodity in interstate commerce," said the CFTC. "Through their Ponzi scheme, defendants obtained at least $90.1 million, from at least 945 investors, for the purchase of silver."
"From August 15, 2011, through February 29, 2012 (the 'Relevant Period' of this complaint), defendants obtained at least $11.53 million, from at least 237 investors...in sixteen states, for the purchase of silver," according to the complaint for injunction and other relief filed in the federal court.
"Despite the offers of sale, defendants failed to purchase any silver at all with the $11.53 million they collected from the AB&C Investors. Instead, defendants misappropriated it," the CFTC asserted. "By late 2011, as their Ponzi scheme began to unravel, defendants attempted to conceal their fraud by issuing false and/or fraudulent financial statements."
The CFTC sought monetary penalties and trading and registration bans, restitution disgorgement, rescission, post-judgement interest, and other relief from the court.
South Carolina Securities Commissioner Alan Wilson also filed a complaint against Wilson and Atlantic Bullion & Coin, charging the defendants with violating the South Carolina Uniform Securities Act of 2005. Wilson alleged that offers and sales were made to investors in 25 states.
"Defendants have, on one or more occasions, used proceeds from a later investor to fund repayment of a portion or all of an earlier investor's investment and/or payment of returns and have not notified the later investor of this material fact," Wilson claimed.
Meanwhile, the commissioner asserted the defendants sold silver at a price per ounce basis "which was outside the trading range of silver during the period in which the investor gave funds for investment in silver and/or received funds purportedly from the sale of his or her silver investment."
A former member of South Carolina's State Board of Education, Wilson met with representatives of the State Securities Division in February, testifying under oath that he and his business "sell silver to banks in New York and Zurich among other places." He also claimed the company had an account at a Delaware depository with 500,000 to 600,000 ounces of silver in it.
The Securities Division said no evidence had been received which supported Wilson's representations.
During a news conference Monday, U.S. Attorney Bill Nettles said Wilson had plead guilty to two counts of mail fraud. He said Wilson had been cooperative with authorities.
"We are just getting started," Nettles said. "We have 10 years of bank records to go through. There are millions of dollars missing." He added that recovering money and assets that would be used to repay more than 800 victims is a priority for prosecutors and law enforcement.
The case was investigated by the U.S. Secret Service and the Greenville and Anderson County Sheriffs' Offices.
Under a plea agreement, Wilson has said he will make full restitution although he lost nearly $60 million of clients' money. The receiver in the case says Wilson owns silver bars, shotguns and an 80-acre farm. A website and telephone number has been established to develop a list of investors who would share the profits if a judge orders that Wilson's assets be liquidated.
Meanwhile, the CFTC civil enforcement action is still underway.
Wilson is free on $1 million bond pending sentencing. The maximum penalty he faces is 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine for each of the two counts of mail fraud.
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/mineweb/en/page34?oid=157095&sn=Detail&pid=102055
http://www.mineweb.com/mineweb/view/mineweb/en/page32?oid=156210&sn=Detail&pid=34
4 arraigned in big bucks, precious metals bullion Ponzi-scheme
A broker--previously disciplined by the CFTC and the National Futures Association in a 1993 commodities options scheme--is again facing charges for a Ponzi-scheme involving precious metals bullion investment.
Author: Dorothy Kosich, Posted: Thursday , 16 Aug 2012
RENO (MINEWEB) -
Four men were scheduled to be arraigned Wednesday before a federal magistrate in Miami, Florida, on charges of conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud in connection with a precious metals bullion investment scheme.
The indictment was brought by federal and state agencies including the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Florida, the FBI, the U.S. Postal Inspector Service and the State of Florida's Office of Financial Regulation.
Arthur John Schlecht, 53, of Boone, North Carolina, but formerly of Miami-Dade County, Bart Gomer, 66, of Sunrise, Florida, Ricardo Jorge Padron, 52, and Carlos Rodriguez, both of Miami, were accused of engaging in a long-term conspiracy to commit fraud through their operation of three corporations, Global Bullion Tracking Group, WJS Funding, d/b/a Capital Asset Management, and Certified Inc., d/b/a Certified Clearing.
These businesses claimed to be investment brokerage firms offering investors the opportunity to invest in gold, silver, platinum, and palladium bullion, which would be stored for the investors in depository vaults.
The indictment claims that, instead of purchasing the physical bullion as promised, the defendants "merely established investment accounts for Capital Asset Management with a broker/dealer in London and used the account to purchase derivative contract investments in precious metals but never actually purchased any physical metal for the investors."
The defendants allegedly used investors' funds for their personal benefit. "In this way, certain defendants allegedly diverted millions of dollars of investors' funds to Arthur Schlecht, his family and third parties to pay for, among other things, maid services, personal tax obligations, salary, social security contributions, home and vacation home construction, landscaping, remodeling, interior furnishings, automobile purchase, restaurant dining, personal travel expenses, clothing and jewelry," said a news release filed by U.S. Attorney Wilfredo A. Ferrer, FBI Acting Special Agent in Charge Jeffrey C. Manzanec, Postal Inspector in Charge, Henry Gutierrez, and Linda B. Charity, interim commissioner, State of Florida's Office of Financial Regulation.
"Thereafter, in order to continue to operate and conceal the companies' insolvency, the defendants engaged in a Ponzi-scheme, through which they used new investors' money to pay off previous inventors and to cover operating expenses," the officials claimed.
When the alleged Ponzi-scheme collapsed, Global Bullion Trading Group, Capital Assessment Management, and Certified, Inc., all filed for bankruptcy.
Ironically, Commodity Futures Trading Commission records reveal Schlecht was the subject of a consent order entered in July 1996 by the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida, which ordered a permanent injunction against Schlecht and his Concorde Trading Group. The CFTC claimed that Concorde reportedly committed fraud, in the course of soliciting customers through telemarketing to purchase options on commodities, specifically oil and gas.
Concorde and Schlecht were ordered by the court to pay $1.5 million in restitution to former Concorde customers.
A National Futures Association complaint filed on Aug. 18, 1993, alleged that Concorde traded over 2,800 customer accounts "and that over 90 percent of these customers lost all or substantially all of their money, while Concorde collected $12.8 million in commissions.
[AND]
Esteemed son of the south pleads guilty in $90.1m silver Ponzi scheme
Thanks to a huge score in non-existent silver, Ronnie Gene Wilson may qualify for the hall of shame in the brotherhood of rascally southern con-men and flim-flam men.
Author: Dorothy Kosich, Posted: Wednesday , 01 Aug 2012
RENO (MINEWEB) -
A former Anderson County, South Carolina councilman and past national commander of the Sons of Confederate Veterans entered a guilty plea in U.S. District Court in connection with a Ponzi scheme in which an estimated 945 investors in 16 states were duped into investing a total of $90.1 million in alleged silver contracts.
In a complaint filed in the U.S. District Court in South Carolina, the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission said Ronnie Gene Wilson, 64, of Easley operated a Ponzi scheme through his company Atlantic Bullion & Coin, Inc. since "at least 2001 through February 29, 2012."
"As part of their Ponzi scheme, Wilson and AB&C....fraudulently offered contracts of sale of silver bullion, a commodity in interstate commerce," said the CFTC. "Through their Ponzi scheme, defendants obtained at least $90.1 million, from at least 945 investors, for the purchase of silver."
"From August 15, 2011, through February 29, 2012 (the 'Relevant Period' of this complaint), defendants obtained at least $11.53 million, from at least 237 investors...in sixteen states, for the purchase of silver," according to the complaint for injunction and other relief filed in the federal court.
"Despite the offers of sale, defendants failed to purchase any silver at all with the $11.53 million they collected from the AB&C Investors. Instead, defendants misappropriated it," the CFTC asserted. "By late 2011, as their Ponzi scheme began to unravel, defendants attempted to conceal their fraud by issuing false and/or fraudulent financial statements."
The CFTC sought monetary penalties and trading and registration bans, restitution disgorgement, rescission, post-judgement interest, and other relief from the court.
South Carolina Securities Commissioner Alan Wilson also filed a complaint against Wilson and Atlantic Bullion & Coin, charging the defendants with violating the South Carolina Uniform Securities Act of 2005. Wilson alleged that offers and sales were made to investors in 25 states.
"Defendants have, on one or more occasions, used proceeds from a later investor to fund repayment of a portion or all of an earlier investor's investment and/or payment of returns and have not notified the later investor of this material fact," Wilson claimed.
Meanwhile, the commissioner asserted the defendants sold silver at a price per ounce basis "which was outside the trading range of silver during the period in which the investor gave funds for investment in silver and/or received funds purportedly from the sale of his or her silver investment."
A former member of South Carolina's State Board of Education, Wilson met with representatives of the State Securities Division in February, testifying under oath that he and his business "sell silver to banks in New York and Zurich among other places." He also claimed the company had an account at a Delaware depository with 500,000 to 600,000 ounces of silver in it.
The Securities Division said no evidence had been received which supported Wilson's representations.
During a news conference Monday, U.S. Attorney Bill Nettles said Wilson had plead guilty to two counts of mail fraud. He said Wilson had been cooperative with authorities.
"We are just getting started," Nettles said. "We have 10 years of bank records to go through. There are millions of dollars missing." He added that recovering money and assets that would be used to repay more than 800 victims is a priority for prosecutors and law enforcement.
The case was investigated by the U.S. Secret Service and the Greenville and Anderson County Sheriffs' Offices.
Under a plea agreement, Wilson has said he will make full restitution although he lost nearly $60 million of clients' money. The receiver in the case says Wilson owns silver bars, shotguns and an 80-acre farm. A website and telephone number has been established to develop a list of investors who would share the profits if a judge orders that Wilson's assets be liquidated.
Meanwhile, the CFTC civil enforcement action is still underway.
Wilson is free on $1 million bond pending sentencing. The maximum penalty he faces is 20 years in prison and a $250,000 fine for each of the two counts of mail fraud.