Counterfeit Perth Mint gold bars [gotta see pics]

CounterfeitGoldie

CounterfeitGoldie

Member
[img]http://forums.silverstackers.com/uploads/29496_correct_size_opt.jpg[/img]Getting close to Christmas. Tons of fakes being sold.
I have a list of 30+ eBay sellers who have sold Dec.1,2016 to Dec.7,2016
Might shake you up. Just showing info pics. These are actual counterfeit assay cards and a bar[notice kangaroos etched into edge.Notice the "R" is oversized
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Scary. Ebay... not the best place to find trustworthy vendors! Best to build up respect in the SS community or prepare for some difficulty offloading in the future.
 
So far, I have bought only from long-established high street dealers such as Ainslie Bullion. I am attempting to keep everything in as-bought condition and I have receipts. The only gold bars I have bought are Scottsdale Mint in Certicards with scannable bar codes and - apparently - embedded with synthetic DNA. Scottsdale claim these bars are super hard to fake, but nothing is impossible of course.

I also like things like RCM's 10oz minted silver bars, which carry a unique serial number, and 1oz Australian Kangaroo coins, which have the micro-engraved 'A', another hard to replicate feature. Obviously though, I'm more concerned about the gold pieces because of their individual value.

One 'less secure' gold item I own - and plan to buy more of - is the Queen's Beasts 1oz coin. If these are as popular as I expect them to be, the counterfeiters will target them for sure. I will therefore only buy from a reputable supplier, though if counterfeiting becomes a problem, selling even the genuine items will involve some degree of rigour.
 
I'm ready for questions, pictures and names of eBay sellers you bought gold from.
Month of December 2016 1st. week counterfeit Perth Mint and Pamp Suisse seller sales and Low Feedback sellers with stock photos violations[ eBay Listing should have been deleted and seller warned or suspended]
 
SteveS said:
I also like things like RCM's 10oz minted silver bars, which carry a unique serial number, and 1oz Australian Kangaroo coins, which have the micro-engraved 'A', another hard to replicate feature.
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RCM 10oz bars are very nice and good value!
 
Shaddam IV said:
eBay seems to be perfectly happy to be a conduit for organised crime
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Its always been a crime's galore! Don't tell me you've just discovered that?!
 
In the ebay sold listings is some perth mint bars out of their certicards, with no description, and sold for less than spot. there is some that sold for 20$. not sure what is going on there.... someone would have to be a fool to buy gold on fraud bay.
 
SteveS said:
So far, I have bought only from long-established high street dealers such as Ainslie Bullion. I am attempting to keep everything in as-bought condition and I have receipts. The only gold bars I have bought are Scottsdale Mint in Certicards with scannable bar codes and - apparently - embedded with synthetic DNA. Scottsdale claim these bars are super hard to fake, but nothing is impossible of course.

I also like things like RCM's 10oz minted silver bars, which carry a unique serial number, and 1oz Australian Kangaroo coins, which have the micro-engraved 'A', another hard to replicate feature. Obviously though, I'm more concerned about the gold pieces because of their individual value.

One 'less secure' gold item I own - and plan to buy more of - is the Queen's Beasts 1oz coin. If these are as popular as I expect them to be, the counterfeiters will target them for sure. I will therefore only buy from a reputable supplier, though if counterfeiting becomes a problem, selling even the genuine items will involve some degree of rigour.
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So this "synthetic DNA" have you tested it yourself to see iff all the AA'BB'DD's match up to what they are supposed to?
Or have you just bought into the sales pitch and accept without thought that this feature works.

Lets just say i buy that bar with the "synthetic DNA" off you , how do i test it ? Or do i just accept it is legit because it has this magical feature without authentication>
 
Gullintanni said:
.......So this "synthetic DNA" have you tested it yourself to see iff all the AA'BB'DD's match up to what they are supposed to?
Or have you just bought into the sales pitch and accept without thought that this feature works.........
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Neither. Was your post intended to be humour, or sarcasm? If the former, keep trying. If the latter, why?
 
^ I saw it as a genuine (with a pinch of sarcasm) and on topic question that you gave a crap answer too.
 
Stoic Phoenix said:
^ I saw it as a genuine (with a pinch of sarcasm) and on topic question that you gave a crap answer too.
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Good morning! How long have you been waiting for me? :lol:
 
If you have been sitting there wondering that for the past few days you lead a sad life and I'm living rent free in your head. :P
To put guillitani's question in a better context.
Do you have any details or a link you could provide in relation to the synthetic DNA please as I am genuinely interested ?


Standard blurbs like this can be found on any bullion dealers site but it really doesnt give any insight.
"Synthetic DNA - Embedded in each Certi-Lock card is a synthetic DNA that can be verified by an authorized dealer with a special on-site electronic device. Not a surface scan and picture match like other products, Cert-Lock has actual DNA material that can be detected by our scanner."

"The man who asks the question is a fool for a minute, the man who does not ask is a fool for life" - Confucius
 
Synthetic DNA! Its been around for several years as a commercial product but I didn't realize it was being used to certify bullion. Its been used for traceability of electronics, as a security spray, as a way to tag criminals, supply chain security, and for high-premium products exported to China. Its even used (apparently) as one component of a set of security features for Australian wines sold in China to ensure providence of the product due to the high number counterfeits. Its usually used as part of a suite of security measures.

One site describes these technologies as:
New holographic technologiesincluding low-cost synthetic DNA, high security taggants and patented holographic QR codescombined with recent developments in enterprise barcode labeling provide next-generation track and traceability. These solutions create a proven "first line of defense" that is already protecting tens of millions of products.
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You can get cans of the stuff with a uniquely coded sequence that can be sprayed onto equipment. Its visible under UV, but I thought you needed specialized equipment to actually identify a specific sequence for identification.

* Aussie supplier: http://www.dnasecuritysolutions.com.au/products.html
* SelectDNA on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SelectaDNA
* Signature DNA: http://adnas.com/signature_dna/

For verification/authentication, I saw this:
SigNify authentication services consist of 3 options:

* Full forensic authentication at our laboratory in Stony Brook, NY
* Field-level mobile units for point-of-activity authentication
* On-site authentication at a customer's QC/QA certified lab

http://adnas.com/signify/
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Thanks for links Spacepete.

The theory for it is good but the application to PM's seems flawed for a number of reasons and therefore I feel just a marketing gimmick.

1 - Once outside the dealer chain, for example a private sale - you can't test its DNA authenticity without going to a dealer who has the "specialised" testing equipment.
2 - If item is stolen, and resold publicly point 1 still applies - it may go through several hands before being retested...if at all.
3 - If item is stolen and then remelted to change its look the synthetic DNA would in all likelyhood be destroyed.

I don't see what real benefits this technology brings to PM's
 
Stoic Phoenix said:
3 - If item is stolen and then remelted to change its look the synthetic DNA would in all likelyhood be destroyed.
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Oh yeah, that destroys the DNA :D But it would be in the packaging, not the bullion AFAIK.

A determined counterfeiter could still buy legit products, swap out out the bullion with fakes, then send the original product to a refiner to recover the cost. The tricky bit would be to match up the fake bar with the image of the bar in the producer database (I assume that is what the QR code enables you to look it up). You'd need to scan the surface of the authentic bar and then use some equipment to reproduce any unique imperfections onto the surface of the fake so that it is at least a visual match on casual inspection. If prices of bullion increase, and/or the cost of technology decreases, that becomes quite viable.

EDIT: A really determined counterfeiter could probably find a group able to silently hack the producer database and replace product security images associated with specific QR codes. But given such groups are usually state sponsored or very expensive to hire, it may be cost prohibitive.
 
Stoic Phoenix said:
^ Just reread about it and you are correct that its on the card and not the bar itself.
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When it comes to bullion, I feel it's all a bit of security theatre. The only 100% guarantee of purity seems to come from destructive metallurgical assay. Even XRF has its limits.
 
SpacePete said:
When it comes to bullion, I feel it's all a bit of security theatre. The only 100% guarantee of purity seems to come from destructive metallurgical assay. Even XRF has its limits.
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Absolutely. Perhaps there are people who do that with every piece of gold and silver they buy, just to be sure :D

Me? Like I said, I do what I can - buying from reputable dealers and, provided there are no downsides to the various security measures provided, I see no reason to avoid them. Anything that makes counterfeiting even a teeny bit harder is a good thing.

There are plenty of 'fake alert' threads on here, most scams being uncovered because the counterfeiter failed to copy some aspect of the original faithfully. Ergo, the harder the manufacturer makes it to copy every feature - whether it's complex designs and finishes, tamper-evident packaging, bar codes or synthetic DNA - the better.
 
With premiums on gov made gold coins not that much more than bars in cards (for certain gov made coins), I don't understand why anyone would want the bars. It is still near impossible to make accurate fakes of gov made gold coins where everything is right (look, dimensions, weight, etc).

However, I have seen fakes of gold bars (both in cards and out of cards) and they looked great to me (I have never bought a gold bar before so I am not an expert). I have had opportunities to view several fake gov made gold coins and even the better specimens were easy for me to spot. If the fake bar is in a card that will make authentication more difficult.

China was pumping out fake gold bars as of the past couple of years so I imagine there are many of them floating around out there.

PS I would though like to get a Rothschild 50g and a 100g gold bar someday.


Here is an awesome site for helping to spot fakes.

https://www.fakebullion.com/index.p...w-counterfeit-perth-gold-in-black-assay-cards

Just my opinion.

Jim
 
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