Coins vs Bars, more ounces vs less ounces

Ouch said:
When the time comes to run, would you rather have a 1930 half-penny proof or 10000 ounces?

When you come face to face with the border guard at the checkpoint would you rather have a 1930 half-penny proof hidden in the folds of your underpants or a 100oz bulge in your pants?
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What about running with chip embedded under the skin which has encrypted GPS coordinates to my 10000oz stack buried deep underground in a secure location with automated turrets and other security measures only bypassable with my DNA and Retinal scan? :P

Too much Deus Ex:Human Revolution.
 
Jislizard said:
Is that legal tender gold, or just any gold e.g. sovereigns, bars, necklaces, teeth, necklaces made from teeth etc. I would think there would be exceptions such as numismatics etc. I am guessing the banking act is pretty big and I am too lazy to go through the whole thing but I would be interested in any specific areas if anyone has a link...
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The Commonwealth Banking Act 1959 can be found in AUSTLII.

Brief summary of the part that pertains to gold, which is Part IV:

Section 40 - The Governor General can activate or deactivate this part of the act whenever they "are satisfied it is expedient". That means, on the advice of Cabinet.

The following applies if Part IV has been activated:

Section 41 - If you try to send gold out of Australia without permission of the Reserve Bank, we will slug you $22000 in fines
Section 42 - If you have any form of gold that is not gold coins to the allowed limit OR gold used in your work (eg. artisian), you have 1 month to deliver that gold to the Reserve Bank or face a $5500 fine.
(They do not specify what the allowable limit of gold coins is)
Section 43 - All gold delivered to the Reserve Bank belongs to them absolutely.
Section 44 - The Reserve Bank will decide the price that they will give you in exchange for the gold.
Section 45 - If you buy or sell gold to anyone other than the Reserve Bank or an authorised representative, you will be fined $22000
Section 46 - If you try to smelt or work the gold but this is not part of your employment, you are charged $22000
Section 47 - Gold and gold alloys which on view have apparently been worked or manufactured for professional or trade purposes (wrought gold) and includes the waste products are exempt
Section 48 - The Reserve Bank has the power to exempt people from Part IV in writing


If SHTF, I can see this coming into play.
It wouldn't take much to extend this into silver, either.
They would just need to amend the law and the opposition would agree with it or not have the balance of power to stop them.
But in a SHTF scenario, they could slip it past without anyone knowing, because there will be much bigger problems when all the people with fiat-only wealth are panicking.
Those people will want the blood of PM stackers or at the very least, not give a **** what happened to them.

So, moral of the story is in a SHTF scenario, keep an eye on what the government is doing and sell before they enact Part IV or hide your stash.
But it may be by the time that Part IV is suspended, your stash isn't worth that much anymore...
 
Ouch said:
When the time comes to run, would you rather have a 1930 half-penny proof or 10000 ounces?

When you come face to face with the border guard at the checkpoint would you rather have a 1930 half-penny proof hidden in the folds of your underpants or a 100oz bulge in your pants?
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I already have a 100oz bulge LMAO
 
SparkySilver said:
auspm said:
goldpelican said:
I'm pretty sure that auspm is referring to 10x 1oz Dragons with the $800-$1000, not 1x 10oz Dragon.
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Correct.

The same principle applies to any 'numismatically' priced silver.

About as 'numismatic' as I like to get is the 1937 crown, which is really only a little over priced in the current market and even then I only have a handful for 'play' silver.

But the intent to buy 1oz 999 at anything above issue price trying to speculate on spectacular returns down the line I believe is short sighted and for the want of a better term 'screwing yourself' out of a better potential gain by going simply for more ounces than rolling the dice on future speculative collectable premiums.

Look at the rhetoric of the long term stackers and you'll see the underlying context of the ideal strategy.

I think the recent influx of new stackers (and the accompanying animated discussion in a bull market) has lead to some stacking choices that have slipped from the fundamentals and moved people's stacks into a potentially more risky direction (being more speculative based).

So my motto is simple on all this.

Stick to core ounces as your primary concern.
Ensure your stack consists of easily recognisable and verifiable bullion or coinage.
If you can get your coinage for a *small* premium, it's generally worth the slight opportunity cost to go for something with a government guarantee behind it.

I have everything in my stack from pre-decimal and 1966 50s through to 20oz Perth Mint bullion bars and even the odd Panda.

A little variety is always fun to have, but I would advise anyone of going overboard with it and to maintain a level head and keep your core stack based on the fundamentals you set out to achieve in the first place.

Lest we cease being stackers and simply collectable baseball card traders, trying to convince each other one silver is better than another and worth silly prices because it's got a pretty picture or comes from a 'limited run'.

I assure you that in the end, when you go to trade in that stack and it's destined for the melting pot, it won't make a damn bit of difference in the slightest.

That's just my personal advice on the issue, but anyone is free to make their stacking choices as they best see fit.

I'll be more than content sticking with the 'yukky' silver and gold the general investment community deems 'junk' and offers at a cheaper price.
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+1..
I was buying in the 80's when it hit $50... and we were opening graded coins to sell for scrap. :)
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Probably you wish you have those coins today.
Smart people were buying those and selling their bars to hedge.
 
Earthjade said:
Section 41 - If you try to send gold out of Australia without permission of the Reserve Bank, we will slug you $22000 in fines
Section 42 - If you have any form of gold that is not gold coins to the allowed limit OR gold used in your work (eg. artisian), you have 1 month to deliver that gold to the Reserve Bank or face a $5500 fine.
(They do not specify what the allowable limit of gold coins is)
Section 43 - All gold delivered to the Reserve Bank belongs to them absolutely.
Section 44 - The Reserve Bank will decide the price that they will give you in exchange for the gold.
Section 45 - If you buy or sell gold to anyone other than the Reserve Bank or an authorised representative, you will be fined $22000
Section 46 - If you try to smelt or work the gold but this is not part of your employment, you are charged $22000
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Thanks for the code and the interpretations!

Well at least by that time $22000 won't be enough to buy loaf of bread.

I can see quite a few artisans having a side line in precious metal storage. I wonder if you have to be certified, my wife makes jewellery for a hobby, should be able to account for a bit of gold that way.
 
Considering the fact that I have no emotional attachment to silver whatsoever (and the fact that people can easily get back the extra premium they pay on coins) I tend to like both simply because a different design or shape (bars) helps break up the monotony of a stack that's all the same.

Right now there is a small premium for the refined appearance of a minted coin (if prices now are any indicator). Probably well worth it over your average cruder bar, though.
 
Several people have pointed out that as spot goes up, the gain you make on a coin (with premium) is less than you would for a bar, since the premium won't increase by the same percentage as the spot price. Very true.

However the flip side of that is, a coin won't LOSE as much value (as a percentage) when spot price falls. I bought some lunars last week in the high 30s (premium ~25% over spot), as well as some lower premium coins like kooks (~14% over spot). Spot then fell, but if I sold all those coins today I would actually have lost less on the lunars than the kooks (and if I had bars to sell, I would have lost even more on those).

So yeah, coin premium reduces your potential windfall when spot goes up, but also insulates you a bit from price drops (provided they are 'numismaticish'/limited mintage coins). So I'm personally sticking with:

- Kooks and lunars (either 1 oz with capped mintage, or other sizes such as 2 oz and 10 oz that in practice end up having limited mintages after the cutoff date when no more will be produced);
- Bars (for pure ounces, though I'm only just starting so haven't got any yet)

I'll be staying away from:

- Maples and ASEs (the design doesn't change, no numismatic qualities and they produce literally millions of them, so I might as well be buying bars);
- Koalas (the design does change but the mintages aren't limited, and frankly most years' designs are ugly!)
- Actual numismatics such as proof, specimen, slabbed etc. coins (I don't have the expertise and don't want to be ripped off, plus I am still essentially stacking for financial reasons rather than collecting, even if I do happen to like the 'semi-numismatic' bullion coins)

But hey I've only been stacking a week, so my noob strategy is no doubt subject to change as I gain experience ;)
 
Cimexus said:
However the flip side of that is, a coin won't LOSE as much value (as a percentage) when spot price falls.
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But the thing is, we're not in silver because we think the value is going to go down!
 
Looking at things logically as we all do 1 kg bars are the most sensible item to buy, large enough to have a low premium above spot but small enough so if silver goes to the moon they won't bepriced out of the market. When I first started to stack these were the only silver I bought but as time went by I thought I like those ASE's and the lunars etc etc and now I have a bit of buyer remorse because I know I could have more bang for buck if I had stuck to 1 kg bars but on the other hand I look at my tiger typeset(thanks hobo-jo and AEL) and I get some pleasure from owning them and other coins etc. What I am trying to say is we are here to improve our financial situation but surely we are entitled to enjoy what we do aren't we?
 
THUCYDIDES79 said:
Just imagine its the year 2000 and you are given $1 mill in cash.

With that money one could have bought 10 - 15 houses in a 'poorer' suburb or you could have bought
3 - 5 houses in a 'richer' suburb.

Fast forward to 2007.

The gains on on those 10 - 15 houses were larger than on the 3 - 5 houses.
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$1 million on Year 2000 1oz Silver lunar dragon coins? :)
 
i am moving into rare coins and hoping to own a portion of the market. More because even if they (coins) where made out of silly putty. some are so rare they have simply intrinsic value because of their rarity. Silver is for flipping to make money to buy more coins for me.

Phillip
 
Silver Pandas... the easiest safest bullion coin to make a quick return in the short, mid and long-term (imho).

Buy them cheap (e.g. Like now) and:
a) sell them when/if spot goes up again, for a quick fiat return.
b) hold onto them for 6months, and sell them for a small premium when the 2012s come out.
c) hold onto them for 1-2years, and sell them for an even bigger premium when the 2013s come out.

Pandas, one of the few bullion coins that have historically proven their ability to appreciate in REAL value (thus far).

A simple example:
A single 2009 ASE currently buys a single 2011 ASE.
A single 2009 Panda currently buys two 2011 Pandas (or ASEs).
The Panda has grown in REAL value, the ASE has preserved value.

A simple motto:
Cash - Loses value
Bullion - Preserves value
Pandas - Appreciate in value
 
yennus said:
Silver Pandas... the easiest safest bullion coin to make a quick return in the short, mid and long-term (imho).

Buy them cheap (e.g. Like now) and:
a) sell them when/if spot goes up again, for a quick fiat return.
b) hold onto them for 6months, and sell them for a small premium when the 2012s come out.
c) hold onto them for 1-2years, and sell them for an even bigger premium when the 2013s come out.

Pandas, one of the few bullion coins that have historically proven their ability to appreciate in REAL value (thus far).

A simple example:
A single 2009 ASE currently buys a single 2011 ASE.
A single 2009 Panda currently buys two 2011 Pandas (or ASEs).
The Panda has grown in REAL value, the ASE has preserved value.

A simple motto:
Cash - Loses value
Bullion - Preserves value
Pandas - Appreciate in value
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An example:
Two weeks ago week I bought 2009 Panda's for $82.50 - spot was around $40
Today 2009 Panda's are worth $100+ - spot is approx $31

Thanks Yennus
 
Savige Silver said:
Looking at things logically as we all do 1 kg bars are the most sensible item to buy, large enough to have a low premium above spot but small enough so if silver goes to the moon they won't bepriced out of the market.
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I've tended to think that 1KG is too big, but I enjoy seeing the lower prices on them, and I was initially interested in only 1KG chunks.

Then again I do have 1oz gold when I should have gone smaller...
 
hotel 46 I disagree. In the bubble phase, people will be begging to buy our silver. I plan to sell to them. My next phase of pm investing will be to determine which bulk silver (bars, rounds, etc.) will be the most desirable to the public in the mania phase.
 
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