Calling all Manipulation Theorists

STKR said:
To suggest it's not even possible is embarassing on behalf of your position.
.....
I'm starting to think I'm debating with a donkey over here...
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And there it is.... the ad hominem response. Disappointing, but usually used as last resort of trying to appear confident in the face of a crumbling position.
I guess this discussion is over? ;)
This discussion wouldn't have progressed anyway. The constant fall-back position of purposefully conflating spoofing with long-term suppression, although probably the best argument available, is non-the-less a false argument.
Shame.
 
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wrcmad said:
And there it is.... the ad hominem response. Disappointing, but usually used as last resort of trying to appear confident in the face of a crumbling position.
I guess this discussion is over? ;)
This discussion wouldn't have progressed anyway. The constant fall-back position of purposefully conflating spoofing with long-term suppression, although probably the best argument available, is non-the-less a false argument.
Shame.
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The fact that you believe it's not even possible reveals your ignorance on the matter. Your position is to dismiss all the credible evidence that gives credence to the long-term manipulation claim and justify it by saying "because nobody has been able to show proof".
Yet you acknowledge the behaviours and accept that manipulation has taken place...? Just not on a timeframe that satisfies you? Go figure...
 
Manipulation is one of those hard held belief. Disagreeing about it on this site usually just ends in insults being thrown. The truth though is that there is no long term manipulation, just trading. But people listen to the many seemingly intelligent people (but with vested interests) arguing that the price of silver etc is held down. The reality is there have been many small short term manipulations but they have all been simply attempts to make money short term and in BOTH directions. The belief that people are sitting around a table and discussing methods of keeping any commodity price low for long periods would disappear immediately if you were able to see the level of compliance and legal involvement at the institutions that would need to be involved in doing this. There are far more seats in the compliance and legal department than on the trading floor. The main role of of these conscientious people is to protect the reputation of the institution.
 
Yet there's more proof to suggest that it is happening than not.
My views are based around probability. The belief that long-term price suppression exists has absolutely zero meaning or reasoning as to why I hold PMs, Nor does it have any bearing on the perceived opportunity.

To ignore the possibility is absurd, even if you think it's improbable. To ignore the undeniable long-term manipulation in the past is baffling, and to assume the intentions behind the manipulation as solely being for profits reveals lack of open-minded thinking.
 
when they no longer use USD in other people trades, the secret is exposed to light
the control is to keep people trust in paper as it is written on it for people to believe, but this trust can be destroyed
many things were without saying understood, in the past people with long life and good brain, now everything need to be label or you can get sued for not doing just that...the understanding had long dissipated
paper money is enslavement, and to associate that as free economy is brainless
 
President Trump said:
The truth though is that there is no long term manipulation, just trading. But people listen to the many seemingly intelligent people (but with vested interests) arguing that the price of silver etc is held down. The reality is there have been many small short term manipulations but they have all been simply attempts to make money short term and in BOTH directions.
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^^This. :)
 
the actors usually clean up the acts and cover all traces, that is very hard to prove the existence of the acts
 
STKR said:
How bought short term? :D
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Repeating myself.... sure.
Mate I've put trades on that have moved the market in pips. Not a big deal. Not price suppression.
In fact, every trade contributes to price discovery. :p
 
wrcmad said:
Repeating myself.... sure.
Mate I've put trades on that have moved the market in pips. Not a big deal. Not price suppression.
In fact, every trade contributes to price discovery. :p
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And how do you know it was your trade that moved the market in pips?
 
STKR said:
And how do you know it was your trade that moved the market in pips?
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OMG. Seriously?
Ever heard of filling the ask or bid to move to a new day high or low?
Seen course of trades data?
Have you ever traded?
 
STKR said:
Yet there's more proof to suggest that it is happening than not.
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I’m not a big fan of investment banks but I have a good understanding of how they operate. They are driven by greed, they front run their clients, they have an unfair advantage in terms of information and resources. Many traders have very questionable morals. But traders are under enormous scrutiny. They can get away with short term manipulation playing dirty little tricks ...but long term? Nope this doesn’t happen. The driver is making money. There is no surer way of losing money than taking trades in the opposite direction to the market long term. Yes short term running of stops that happens but why would anyone who is driven by profit and has the forward view advantage that the investment banks do push prices in the opposite direction? You would be looking for someone who is not motivated by profit. So who and for what reason.
 
yeah almost forgotten, many manipulators also got terminated, so the proof vanished with them
 
STKR said:
Please explain...
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Nope.
It has just dawned on me how little you actually know about the markets. Yet you are calling me the donkey!? pffffft. :rolleyes:
This just reinforces my point regarding the "manipulation theorists" vs reality.
Over the years, I have explained the inner workings of the futures markets here on the forum. You are welcome to do your own search.
I've done my homework, and I'm not doing yours for you.

I stand by my claim that nobody has been able to demonstrate, or prove, long term market suppression of PM prices. :)
 
President Trump said:
I’m not a big fan of investment banks but I have a good understanding of how they operate. They are driven by greed, they front run their clients, they have an unfair advantage in terms of information and resources. Many traders have very questionable morals. But traders are under enormous scrutiny. They can get away with short term manipulation playing dirty little tricks ...but long term? Nope this doesn’t happen. The driver is making money. There is no surer way of losing money than taking trades in the opposite direction to the market long term. Yes short term running of stops that happens but why would anyone who is driven by profit and has the forward view advantage that the investment banks do push prices in the opposite direction? You would be looking for someone who is not motivated by profit. So who and for what reason.
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They clearly weren't under too much scrutiny if they were able to engage in manipulation for 5-7 year period, revealed through one investigation.
If they've been charged and fined for the activities that have been uncovered, largely because Deutsche Bank released 1000's of documents incriminating other Banks and personnel, what other instances have occured which are yet to be revealed? We may never truly know.

Managing the price is not beyond the realm of possibility for some of the major players.

And if you can make profits trading any commodity, why would silver take preference over other markets? And why gross short and not long? If it were solely for profits, wouldn't riding the market on both sides equally make more sense? These aren't rhetorical questions, just curious observations.
1523881429530-Snip20180116_3.png

The rapid acquisition of the metal also raises some eyebrows. I've heard many of fallacious claims that it's to capitalise on silver when they let go of the manipulation, yet I find that to be unlikely.
However, larger physical holdings would provide greater opportunities to place larger hedging positions to meet market demand.

The notable drops in holdings in 2008 and 2011 are also interesting... It's not shown on this chart, but there's also a drop in holdings around 2015-2016. Indicating that deliveries were taken in these times, or some physical shifting occurred?..

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wrcmad said:
I stand by my claim that nobody has been able to demonstrate, or prove, long term market suppression of PM prices. :)
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Well at least something has dawned on you.

It would appear the key term you cling to is "long-term". Nice to see you don't actively deny price suppression exists.
 
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