Buying recommendations for easily available coins

U

upandaway

Member
Hi guys,

I would appreciate some buying tips on gold coins. I have collected a wide variety of semi-numismatic silver coins which I hope will gain above spot over time yet cost very little over spot when released and wondered if the same dynamic exists with gold coins?

Any advice/recommendations would be appreciated as I know nothing about gold coin collecting.

Thanks
 
Talk to yennus in the panda forum. I think the last few years produced have unlimited quantity, but the ones before are highly collectible with a passionate market. Numis divide ppl, tho ;)
 
You can't go wrong with sovereigns. They've got the best of both worlds:

Common - every coin store in Australia has sovs, and bullion coins can be picked up for just a couple of percent above spot.
Numismatics - Lots of scope for collecting the rarer years and mints, and coins in good condition are big money items!

Plus (IMHO) they just look beautiful. And it's nice to hold a piece of history in your hands, which you just don't get with modern Pandas or Kangas.

Good luck, and enjoy!
 
PrettyPrettyShinyShiny said:
Talk to yennus in the panda forum. I think the last few years produced have unlimited quantity, but the ones before are highly collectible with a passionate market. Numis divide ppl, tho ;)
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There are still stated mintage limits on the gold pandas.

For example, the 2012 1oz Panda is 600,000.
 
bungo said:
You can't go wrong with sovereigns. They've got the best of both worlds:

Common - every coin store in Australia has sovs, and bullion coins can be picked up for just a couple of percent above spot.
Numismatics - Lots of scope for collecting the rarer years and mints, and coins in good condition are big money items!

Plus (IMHO) they just look beautiful. And it's nice to hold a piece of history in your hands, which you just don't get with modern Pandas or Kangas.

Good luck, and enjoy!
Click to expand...

To throw my 2c in.

I've never found a sovereign at just 2% over spot (albeit i've only got back into collecting recently). Around my neck of the woods, 8-10% (and more) premium is the norm for bullion or perhaps a grade above bullion, and i'm talking about dealers on this forum, let alone walking into a bricks and mortar store.

Hell, even 8% wasn't enough for one individual on here (not you Projack) for a very common date sovereign. I didn't even get a counteroffer so i don't know what price they were expecting.

Correct me if i am wrong and if you know where to get sovs for close to spot, please PM me (i'm being honest here not sarcastic).
 
upandaway said:
I have collected a wide variety of semi-numismatic silver coins which I hope will gain above spot over time yet cost very little over spot when released and wondered if the same dynamic exists with gold coins?

Any advice/recommendations would be appreciated as I know nothing about gold coin collecting.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Hi upandaway, yep, the same dynamic exists with some gold coins.

Some Gold Pandas sell for many times the value of spot. E.g. 1oz 2000 Mirrored Gold Panda recently sold for over $8000.

A quick and free guide can be found by checking out the APMEX prices. Peter Anthony's Pricepedia probably the best guide to look at for prices though.
http://www.apmex.com/Category/373/Gold_Pandas___1_oz_2012__Prior.aspx

Hope this helps.
 
Sorry that no-one has really bothered to answer your question.

Simply, gold coins will generally not appreciate numismatically as much as silver coins, proportionate to their spot price.

Eg, a 1/10th lunar gold 2000 dragon vs a 2oz silver dragon of the same year. Appreciation 'above' spot price is vastly different.
 
upandaway said:
Hi guys,

I would appreciate some buying tips on gold coins. I have collected a wide variety of semi-numismatic silver coins which I hope will gain above spot over time yet cost very little over spot when released and wondered if the same dynamic exists with gold coins?

Any advice/recommendations would be appreciated as I know nothing about gold coin collecting.

Thanks
Click to expand...

We have the same plan on silver. On gold, I would stay with what is desirable and easy to sell in your area. I really don't have much expectation for premium appreciation on gold coins. Since I am in the US, I buy AGE and for you it might be sovereigns or kangaroos. In other years, I would say lunars, but the dragon is an exception to the rule.

I avoid whatever is being counterfeited. Right now, my avoid list includes Pandas (gold and silver), gold lunar dragons and very old US coins.
 
It would be a better recommendation to avoid ebay (atleast people you don't trust) than to avoid certain coins. It's very easy to detect fake gold coins.
 
mfm said:
It would be a better recommendation to avoid ebay (atleast people you don't trust) than to avoid certain coins. It's very easy to detect fake gold coins.
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mfm, I work under the theory that as the fakes become plentiful for a coin, it adversely affects the price of the genuine coins. And as the skill level of the counterfeiters increase, detecting the fakes will become harder and harder. Besides, even if you discover that a coin purchased through a legitimate dealer is a fake, how can you prove it was the same coin you bought from them? Good luck on getting a refund from most dealers. Not worth the risk for me. I love the Panda designs, but I have stopped buying them. And I know of others who have done the same. I will never forget the stress I went through worrying over whether the 1oz 2010 gold Panda that I bought last year from Gainesville was real or not. intelligencer had received a fake gold panda from a local dealer and I became extremely concerned over whether my coin was genuine or not. I am still not 100% sure whether the coin is genuine, but I have stopped worrying about it. However, I am not putting myself through that process again.
 
dccpa said:
mfm, I work under the theory that as the fakes become plentiful for a coin, it adversely affects the price of the genuine coins. And as the skill level of the counterfeiters increase, detecting the fakes will become harder and harder. Besides, even if you discover that a coin purchased through a legitimate dealer is a fake, how can you prove it was the same coin you bought from them? Good luck on getting a refund from most dealers. Not worth the risk for me. I love the Panda designs, but I have stopped buying them. And I know of others who have done the same. I will never forget the stress I went through worrying over whether the 1oz 2010 gold Panda that I bought last year from Gainesville was real or not. intelligencer had received a fake gold panda from a local dealer and I became extremely concerned over whether my coin was genuine or not. I am still not 100% sure whether the coin is genuine, but I have stopped worrying about it. However, I am not putting myself through that process again.
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All the pictures of intelligencer's post are deleted, so I can't really comment on the details but he bought a panda with incorrect weight and a wrong and broken package from a clueless dealer. No fake panda has ever been spotted with the "Shenzhen Guobao mint" packaging intact, so it's easy to know if your gold panda is OK.

And if someone was to fake it (just as there could be a flood of fake AGE coins tomorrow), if you know the correct dimensions and weight of a gold panda you can detect any and all fake pandas for all future.

There are also fake NGC and PCGS holders, still a lot of people here hold them as the one and only truth in coin collecting...

Edit: From your description of your panda coin in the other thread it seems that you worry for no reason.
 
...unless they get real good at tungsten coins with gold plating

In which case, we're all screwed.

At least if you buy gold coins for bullion value, you can always chop them up to prove otherwise :)
 
Ohmmeter test, and measure resistance on numerous faces or sides of the article. If the article is not filled or alloyed with tricky-dicky materials you will get a fairly accurate result from any article size.

Examples:

- If depth/thickness of material is >60% of space between test needles/probes then use 'thin' Sheet Resistance formula rho = length of sample / ohms x surface area

- If depth/thickness of material is =<5* of space between test needles/probes then use Correction formula rho = 2 x Pi x distance between probes x Volts / amps

Plenty of examples and formulas online and old Physics textbooks (THUCY).

Resistance does not lie.

Couple the above with other basic non destructive tests such as Density displacement.

Works a treat for 24k/999 Gold, but fails in claimed alloyed Gold from notorious Sydney's King Cross (hence why I dream of a XRF for scrap buying). :(
 
mfm said:
dccpa said:
mfm, I work under the theory that as the fakes become plentiful for a coin, it adversely affects the price of the genuine coins. And as the skill level of the counterfeiters increase, detecting the fakes will become harder and harder. Besides, even if you discover that a coin purchased through a legitimate dealer is a fake, how can you prove it was the same coin you bought from them? Good luck on getting a refund from most dealers. Not worth the risk for me. I love the Panda designs, but I have stopped buying them. And I know of others who have done the same. I will never forget the stress I went through worrying over whether the 1oz 2010 gold Panda that I bought last year from Gainesville was real or not. intelligencer had received a fake gold panda from a local dealer and I became extremely concerned over whether my coin was genuine or not. I am still not 100% sure whether the coin is genuine, but I have stopped worrying about it. However, I am not putting myself through that process again.
Click to expand...

All the pictures of intelligencer's post are deleted, so I can't really comment on the details but he bought a panda with incorrect weight and a wrong and broken package from a clueless dealer. No fake panda has ever been spotted with the "Shenzhen Guobao mint" packaging intact, so it's easy to know if your gold panda is OK.

And if someone was to fake it (just as there could be a flood of fake AGE coins tomorrow), if you know the correct dimensions and weight of a gold panda you can detect any and all fake pandas for all future.

There are also fake NGC and PCGS holders, still a lot of people here hold them as the one and only truth in coin collecting...

Edit: From your description of your panda coin in the other thread it seems that you worry for no reason.
Click to expand...


mfm, you are thinking as someone with a lot of knowledge on the subject. Most people do not have your level of knowledge and are not going to obtain your level of knowledge. One thing I have learned through studying investing is to try and not underestimate how the general populace will react to something. Those potential buyers are going to read or hear about fake coins and most will avoid that type of coin. Can the Pandas still obtain a sizable premium even in that circumstance, yes, but IMHO the odds are not in favor of them doing so, especially with a massive increase in the mintage of the new years. So, my pm purchases will be into other coins that I believe have a better risk/reward ratio for premium increase.

One important question. What are going to do when a dealer sends you a fake Panda or Pandas and won't take it back? When Tulving sent me 3 1988 AGEs with deep scratches on them out of a 220 coin order ( most not mine :( ), I called him about returning those coins. He said I don't sell coins like that and hung up on me. Similar results from Gainesville and Providentmetals for damage from bad/sloppy packaging. Unless the coin is slabbed, how do you prove where you bought it? I don't believe that you can prove where you bought the coin and one fake coin will wipe out a lot of premium on the others. So, being able to tell that the coin is fake still leaves you dependent upon your relationship with the dealer. From buying over 1 million dollars in coins over the last 3-4 for myself and others (mostly others), I have learned that the US dealers do not make good on replacing defective coins or coins damaged through faulty shipping. So, I have -0- confidence that the US dealers would take back any fake coins. From reading this board over the last year+, I believe the AU dealers are more ethical regarding problems. But my position is to avoid the risk.

Hopefully, the Panda investments work out well for those who buy them. Opinions were asked for and I gave mine. Time will tell which opinion is correct.
 
dccpa said:
mfm, you are thinking as someone with a lot of knowledge on the subject. Most people do not have your level of knowledge and are not going to obtain your level of knowledge. One thing I have learned through studying investing is to try and not underestimate how the general populace will react to something. Those potential buyers are going to read or hear about fake coins and most will avoid that type of coin. Can the Pandas still obtain a sizable premium even in that circumstance, yes, but IMHO the odds are not in favor of them doing so, especially with a massive increase in the mintage of the new years. So, my pm purchases will be into other coins that I believe have a better risk/reward ratio for premium increase.

One important question. What are going to do when a dealer sends you a fake Panda or Pandas and won't take it back? When Tulving sent me 3 1988 AGEs with deep scratches on them out of a 220 coin order ( most not mine :( ), I called him about returning those coins. He said I don't sell coins like that and hung up on me. Similar results from Gainesville and Providentmetals for damage from bad/sloppy packaging. Unless the coin is slabbed, how do you prove where you bought it? I don't believe that you can prove where you bought the coin and one fake coin will wipe out a lot of premium on the others. So, being able to tell that the coin is fake still leaves you dependent upon your relationship with the dealer. From buying over 1 million dollars in coins over the last 3-4 for myself and others (mostly others), I have learned that the US dealers do not make good on replacing defective coins or coins damaged through faulty shipping. So, I have -0- confidence that the US dealers would take back any fake coins. From reading this board over the last year+, I believe the AU dealers are more ethical regarding problems. But my position is to avoid the risk.

Hopefully, the Panda investments work out well for those who buy them. Opinions were asked for and I gave mine. Time will tell which opinion is correct.
Click to expand...

It seems your main problem is crappy dealers, not fake pandas.

My dealer replaced an older scratched AGE with a brand new 2011 coin when I said I wasn't happy with the first coin, no questions asked (but they checked that the coin to be replaced was genuine, like all serious dealers should). I have changed panda coins too (to different years). A serious dealer wouldn't sell me a fake in the first place, since they would have verified the authenticity. And if they did I'm sure they would help me.

Also, all dealers I buy pandas from are official dealers one way or the other.
 
mfm, I agree the dealers in the US are generally, crappy, but my problem is the fake coins. Like I said, the AU dealers seem to be much better. But regardless of whether the dealer is an official dealer, you still cannot prove you bought the coin from the dealer. And unless the dealer checks and finds more fake coins in his inventory, it is going to hard for that dealer to take back a fake coin and absorb the loss. Even then, some dealers may figure it is cheaper to lose your business than to take the loss. Your relationship with the dealer is going mean a lot in a fake coin situation, but you may still be stuck with the loss.
 
dccpa said:
mfm, I agree the dealers in the US are generally, crappy, but my problem is the fake coins. Like I said, the AU dealers seem to be much better. But regardless of whether the dealer is an official dealer, you still cannot prove you bought the coin from the dealer. And unless the dealer checks and finds more fake coins in his inventory, it is going to hard for that dealer to take back a fake coin and absorb the loss. Even then, some dealers may figure it is cheaper to lose your business than to take the loss. Your relationship with the dealer is going mean a lot in a fake coin situation, but you may still be stuck with the loss.
Click to expand...


You need to have carefully with us dollars fakes too. (i recibe 5 of 100 us). Its equal to original but when i sell in to the bank they detect is fake. But i test one in two others banks and with friends and dont say what bill is the fake and what is real.
But i continue to buy dollars.
 
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