Buying precious metals anonymously these days is getting harder.

I read that as only applying to transactions over the reporting threshold.

Also is it only for cash or using electronic banking where the bank has already done identification?

I wonder how austrac will access this data? Do they keep a centralised database so that hackers can get it all at once? We know from recent RAM remembrance Day sales (and ABS) that government IT systems seem poorly executed.
 
Steveno said:
I read that as only applying to transactions over the reporting threshold.

Also is it only for cash or using electronic banking where the bank has already done identification?

I wonder how austrac will access this data? Do they keep a centralised database so that hackers can get it all at once?.
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Also states....
Purchases and sales of less than $5,000

You are not required to carry out applicable customer identification procedures for purchases or sales of bullion when the retail value of the transaction is less than A$5,000 or the foreign currency equivalent.

However, if you determine for ongoing customer due diligence purposes that you should obtain, update or verify any customer identification information then you must carry out your customer identification procedures, regardless of the transaction amount.



Peter Beck wouldn't accept my electronic transfer without ID verification despite previously going through with out issue, several times previously.

Looks like being a regular / returning customer is the benchmark for ID:(
 
Given it is not a requirement what is motivating private companies to irritate their customers.

Does anyone think this will catch any measurable percentage of money laundering or terrorism funding transactions.
 
Whilst sightly off the topic re Austrac but associated with anonymity.......this tread reminds me of discussion I had with ABC last year when I popped in unannounced and bought some bibs and bobs for cash on a no names basis.

I asked the sales staff, "So, you want to move from your current Sydney location, which is kind of private (non-descript) to a main thoroughfare in the Sydney CBD (Martin Place) which will be "look at me"..."So you are advertising...Come and mug our clients after they leave the store?" ....old mate (aka young & wet behind the ears) looked at me with astoundment ....the penny dropped a few moments later.

Not sure if ABC will go ahead with this, but it'll be another reason not to buy from them if they do.



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Even if there are records of you buying something, are there records after that?
Say if you sold it to someone a month later or gave it away as a gift?
Im trying to understand this sorry. You guys have alot of hurdles there to purchase metals that i dont have in Colorado and im trying to see the reasoning behind it.
Here its just cash straight across at whatever price, no tax no nothing. If he wants 25 an oz its 25 an oz and theres never been any records kept that ive heard of.
If someone uses a credit or debit card then there is an extra charge to cover that with the bank.
Some states have taxes but its up to them.

Edit that i think we have a 10k limit for reporting on taxes but im not really sure. Maybe its the same type thing.
 
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JohnnyBravo300 said:
Im trying to understand this sorry. You guys have alot of hurdles there to purchase metals that i dont have in Colorado and im trying to see the reasoning behind it.
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KYC and being familiar with your customers’ typical financial transactions makes you aware of any unusual or suspicious activity and reduces the risk of your business or organisation being exploited for money laundering or terrorism financing purposes.
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https://www.austrac.gov.au/business...ustomer-identification-know-your-customer-kyc

At the other end of the spectrum is STP which reports income earned as soon as it is paid to the employee:

Single Touch Payroll (STP), is an Australian Government initiative to reduce employers' reporting burdens to government agencies.

With STP, you report employees' payroll information to us each time you pay them through STP-enabled software. Payroll information includes:

  • salaries and wages
  • pay as you go (PAYG) withholding
  • superannuation.
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https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Single-Touch-Payroll/

Checking what goes in and checking what goes out.
 
I would guess that some bullion dealers have made the decision to carry out KYC due-diligence because they perceive a threat exists to their business operations from some customers. I know one manufacturing jeweller who has been approached to make gold chains and rings for sectors of society whose diverse income streams could attract the unwanted attention of those with an interest in law enforcement. I don't think KYC applies to his business so he just politely declines the invitation to supply goods.
 
I dont get the terrorism part either.
Do they think a terrorist is going to plant a bomb in a bullion store and why? Like hes pretending to be a customer but forgets his backpack there, then bang?

Let me guess. They will find the terrorists ID and passport in perfect condition at the sight of the explosion haha.
 
JohnnyBravo300 said:
I dont get the terrorism part either.
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As far as bullion dealers go it wouldn't be the terrorism bit it's money laundering. And some bullion dealers may find it more comfortable to ask their potential customers to complete the ID process than refuse service, depending upon the type of customer they are potentially dealing with.
 
Happy for you to change my mind!

I started this post and read all the reply's with interest.

I was annoyed that I was now being asked to supply a lot of personnel information in order to continue to be a customer.

I completely understand that gold is perfect to store ill gained wealth and as such subject to scrutiny.

My local refiner (PWB) now follows the "Know your customer" policy which records details of all customers for permanent record, regardless of the $5000 +/- rule.

My personnel consideration is that I hate paying premium and seek to hold true to the Silver is Silver ideology. I want to be able to see the spot price and instantly know the value of my stack rather than think, well that coin is $15 over spot and this collectable bar is an extra $200 etc. Ultimately my stack will probably be inherited and I hate the thought of it all going to a dealer who will pay spot with $1000's lost in premium.

With that in mind I have found PWB to be the cheapest refiner out there. The order I made with them (but canceled due to the personnel information questionnaire)
worked out at about $3 over spot. So that's a company taking raw silver ore and refining it to a 999+ purity for $3 an Oz. To me that's not a premium but a fair cost of doing business.

So for someone who wants to keep their premiums to a minimum this is defiantly the way to go, and coupled with the fact I can just pick it up without paying postage, it's all gravy.

So am I just being paranoid about my personnel information?

I already have an account with them which has my name and address. They have my bank details as I do EFT payments.

Should I now be bothered that they are now reporting my purchases (well under $5000) to the government?

My biggest concern is that if the government knows I have for example $100k in silver and the price sores giving me a value of $500k, will they be chasing me for the capital gain etc. With that there's no requirement for me to record what happened to my silver so I could have just bought it on the Monday and sold it for cash on the Tuesday. How could the government prove otherwise?

Anyway.....My plan is to fold and give PWB what they want for the cheaper small purchases, as a foundation and the bigger orders via the forum.

Feel free to change my mind if I've missed something.
 
Hi BC. In a nutshell they already have all your details and especially so as you pay through your bank! The only thing you have to lose is access to cheap bullion.

I am not sure if your details are directly sent to the govt. As I understand, dealers could confirm, KYC details are recorded to comply with any audit that may be carried out to ensure AUSTRAC compliance. I believe “Iceblue” has been through the bureaucratic ringer and most dealers would prefer to err on the side of caution to satisfy any business terms enforced on them by various government agencies.

Having said that I share you sentiments regarding our general loss of privacy.
 
I would recommend that anyone who has assets that when disposed may attract the attention of the ATO to keep appropriate records.
 
generally, as an individual, you do not have a CGT event (i.e. need to worry about the tax) until you sell your hoarding, fluctuation in spot price while the metals are still in your possession does not attract tax

also those types of KYC are more for the AUSTRAC to keep an eye on money laundry, ATO has the access of data but not too sure, to what extent they would use those data
 
BelfastChild said:
It's a subject I know very little about. I'm aware that if you have your asset for more than 12 months then your CGT drops by 50%.
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The CGT discount reduces your capital gain by half. The rate of tax you pay however remains the same ie it is calculated at your marginal tax rate which could be anywhere from 0c in the $ up to 45c in the $ depending upon your income. The CGT discount just means 50% of your capital gain is tax free.
 
I'm sure if casinos can get away with facilitating money laundering for organized crime syndicates then us minnow stackers will be fine.


Or are casinos 'to big to fail', or have too many friends in high places, or both, or all of the above............?
 
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