Buying and selling - Rules of thumb

[Mr.G]

[

There are buyers and sellers and prices are not written in stone. When silver was over forty bucks, an offer in the thirties would be deemed as rude but now would be a godsend.

Is totally different.

If you believe that silver in the secondary market should be sold at or below wholesale price, fair enough! Nothing wrong with that.
But Tolly has totally rejected market prices in his post.

Tolly is right to reject market price (I assume your referring to spot price) when dealing in the secondary market.

Spot is a mechanism for industrial scaled commodity trading, not the passing about of little stamped bars and coins in a secondary peer to peer environment. These are hobby collectables. If you want actual exposure to spot price long or short a contract.

Mr.G

 

[Htu08]

[

There are buyers and sellers and prices are not written in stone. When silver was over forty bucks, an offer in the thirties would be deemed as rude but now would be a godsend.

Is totally different.

If you believe that silver in the secondary market should be sold at or below wholesale price, fair enough! Nothing wrong with that.
But Tolly has totally rejected market prices in his post.

Tolly is right to reject market price (I assume your referring to spot price) when dealing in the secondary market.

Spot is a mechanism for industrial scaled commodity trading, not the passing about of little stamped bars and coins in a secondary peer to peer environment. These are hobby collectables. If you want actual exposure to spot price long or short a contract.

Mr.G

But what happens if I was a smaller manufacturer of surgical equipment, needing say 250oz for nano anti-bacterial coating. I obviously don't have access to the industrial market as I am not buying tonnes.

Now, I can go to a dealer and grab a 250oz industrial bar... What price would they charge me, what is it based on?
How is the silver sold through a dealer different to the silver sold by a trader on this site?
How much of a discount would I need to be willing to buy from here?
How much would physical delivery and transportation cost if I was to buy from the market?

Cheers

 

[Mr.G]

I think this forum is presently dominated by a group whom have set a paradigm of high pricing and expect that everyone else will accept this to validate their 'valuing' of items.

WHAT?)))
this forum offers the most diverse stock for the best price no other place can beat

Agree the forum offers lots of diversity of stock.
Best prices...maybe at the moment for this markets expectations...but with a longer time frame perspective my opinion is that this market will mature/pass/evolve and price expectations will change. Hopefully settle down a bit.

Take the round 50 as an example. 80% junk silver which frequently trades for 20% above spot - Comparatively the florin 92.5% junk goes at spot. Why....market expectations...why...about 18 months ago they got trendy on this forum therefore the price increased. This will change / return to normal.

The kookaburra was a similar story before the 50c. It got a favour amongst a few frequent posters and then it caught fire and you saw 08's and 09's going for well over 200% of spot.

Mr.G

 

[Mr.G]

[
But what happens if I was a smaller manufacturer of surgical equipment, needing say 250oz for nano anti-bacterial coating. I obviously don't have access to the industrial market as I am not buying tonnes.

Now, I can go to a dealer and grab a 250oz industrial bar... What price would they charge me, what is it based on?
How is the silver sold through a dealer different to the silver sold by a trader on this site?
How much of a discount would I need to be willing to buy from here?
How much would physical delivery and transportation cost if I was to buy from the market?

Cheers

Sorry the above is not fully clear to me.

Industrial silver is a consumable and would link to the market price.
Coins and bars in the secondary market are hobby collectables and will realise a price organically each time.
If I was a manufacturer I'd buy from the:
1stly - the cheapest....I'm melting and re-fabricating it after all.
2ndly - the most reliable source cause if I'm any good I'm going to need more of it.

Mr.G

 

[Htu08]

[
But what happens if I was a smaller manufacturer of surgical equipment, needing say 250oz for nano anti-bacterial coating. I obviously don't have access to the industrial market as I am not buying tonnes.

Now, I can go to a dealer and grab a 250oz industrial bar... What price would they charge me, what is it based on?
How is the silver sold through a dealer different to the silver sold by a trader on this site?
How much of a discount would I need to be willing to buy from here?
How much would physical delivery and transportation cost if I was to buy from the market?

Cheers

Sorry the above is not fully clear to me.

Industrial silver is a consumable and would link to the market price.
Coins and bars in the secondary market are hobby collectables and will realise a price organically each time.
If I was a manufacturer I'd buy from the:
1stly - the cheapest....I'm melting and re-fabricating it after all.
2ndly - the most reliable source cause if I'm any good I'm going to need more of it.

Mr.G

Cheapest. Definitely. So the cost of refining underspot junk silver has to be factored in.
So now how is xxxsellerxxx's 25x10oz bar any different? (pending XRF and other testing methods).
If he was selling cheaper than xxxdealerxxx wouldn't it therefore be wise to buy from him?
What would be an ideal price? What prices are we basing all these sales+ purchases or whateevr on?
I'm pretty sure you are still using spot.

-I'm really not talking about collectable coins and such here (proofs/ designed coins, etc) and the premiums paid.
I'm talking solid, 999 bars. How are they any different to your industrial consumable silver? Why is the price any different?
I actually don't understand the separation you have made between the bars that are sold here and the industrial bars used.
E.g. Couldn't the company buy the bars off me and melt them down and use them in manufacturing?

Collecting for designs and displays and showcasing coins is an entirely different thing. But at the same time, 999 silver is still 999silver. It can just be melted down into an industrial bar and sold.


Sorry if I'm not making much sense, in a rush.

 

[House]

M Order has already been established amongst older members due to their observations of how trades are run and it helps the process if everyone is on the same proverbial page. I think every member would agree with that.

I'm a member, and I disagree with that.

What has happened in the past does not mean it has to happen now or again. And this crystalise my previous posts. So called older members paradigm's are not the final word (neither is mine).

Well then that crystallized my previous post... They're guidelines. Never said anything about final word from anyone. Definition of a guideline- "a statement by which to determine a course of action. A guideline aims to streamline particular processes according to a set routine or sound practice. By definition, following a guideline is never mandatory. Guidelines are not binding and are not enforced."

We're talking about a brand new member with no clue about buying and selling. What B_B has written is intended to give them a 'heads up' on some of the formalities in trading and what to expect. As stated, it's not intended as a definitive guide. If they're looking to buy low premium 1oz they'll know to expect to pay $2-$4 over spot. They don't have to of course but that's the usual premium in most cases.

 

[Mr.G]

Sorry all this is way off topic. sorry to have hijacked the thread with theory.

g'nite htu08, btw good cheap prices on your 10oz bars in the sale thread.

 

[tolly_67]

Sorry if it appears if I am stirring the pot. Each one of us has our own experience and as such would offer different advice to newbies and with all opinions we would all eventually agree to disagree........

Nothing wrong with opinions.

When silver was over forty bucks, an offer in the thirties would be deemed as rude but now would be a godsend.

But I just think its brutally misleading when you post something that calls for a rejection of market prices in the valuation of silver. I understand that there is disagreement in the selling premium (or under premum), which is fair enough. You might think spot + 10% is too much. Or even spot +1% is too much. Or even spot - 5%.

But a statement like the one you made, has totally rejected the idea of market prices. What I'm trying to say is, the $30 offer when spot was $40 is totally different to the $30 offer when spot is $22. And EVERYONE has to try and understand.

It is all bout timing.....spot $40 in the morning and $25 at the end of the days trade......a bid in the low 30's would be way out of the money at 10am but would be market price by lunch......an extreme I know but it illustrates my point a bit better I hope.

 

[spannermonkey]

There's 2 rules
Buy low - sell high

Buy now cry later

 

[Ag-man]

Pretty simple.

The seller wants the highest price, the buyer wants the lowest price.
Depending on circumstances, somewhere in between they could meet.

If someone places an EOI without a ball park figure, don't get insulted when a low offer comes in.
It's only an offer and a place to start negotiations.


(JKS)

 

[bull_bear]

Just to clarify - Rules of thumb are general observations about how the market is generally already operating.
No-one is trying to impose rules, and I specifically avoided trying to say things like "This products *always* sells at $spot + x "

These rules of thumb will change over time,
As others have already stated, at one point you could easily get 50's at or below spot - today that is less likely - tomorrow who knows


Genuine question: If you see, say, a 5 x 1kg Pamp's advertised on here, and your want to buy, how would you go about deciding its priced fairly? Does anyone keep a record of premiums in past sales? or go to dealers websites to compare prices in real time? If so, how much (if any) cheaper would the item have to be (delivered) to make you buy from a member as opposed to a dealer?

Another question: For the Kookaburra series, how long might it take for a particular design or year to become a "classic" that is worth significantly more than similar coins in the series. (2008 is good example )
Was this a hit from the time it was released? did its premium rise slowly? or was there some catalyst?

 

[Lunardragon]

.

 

[Lunardragon]

Never mind