BULLIONMARK & AUSTRAC $5000 threshold limit

J

Jimsilver

New Member
Hi Guys & Girls

I came across this site a 6 months ago looking for the Threshold Limited on buying bullion without verification of your identity.

I found Goldpelican's post - http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-882-austrac-and-bullion-sales.html

So thinking that the limit was $10,000 I began to buy 1oz kookaburras.

The first lot was $1270 then I bought another lot worth $2070 and last week I placed an order worth $2300 for a total of $5640 over a period of 2 months.

Whilst waiting for my last order, I received an email from Bullionmark stating I need to fill out an AUSTRAC form, saying that I had gone over my threshold. I contacted the dealer via email to clarify why I was sent this form, and they insisted that I needed to fill out the form in order for the transaction to be complete.

The specifics of the email are as follows:

"Please be advised that we regularly consult Austrac regarding the latest requirements in order to meet our legal obligations, like most legislation there are many sections and we have been advised by Austrac to verifiy identity for transactions over $5000 as per the following section of the legislation:

Sections 39 and 247 of the AML/CTF Act provide for exemption from identification requirements.

The Anti-Money Laundering and Counter-Terrorism Financing Rules Amendment Instrument 2009 (No. 2) has added Chapter 33 into the AML/CTF Rules, providing an exemption for reporting entities from carrying out customer identification procedures for purchases or sales of bullion when the retail value of the transaction is less than $5,000."

I then specified that I wished to cancel my order to maintain my privacy, to which I was penalised a $95.00 fee.

Giddyup Jimsilver
 
That is correct... for $5,000 or more, AUSTRAC require customer identification processes to be followed.

The $10,000 threshold is a REPORTING threshold for cash transactions, not a customer identification threshold.

There's a few other threads on this subject, this one is pertinent:

http://forums.silverstackers.com/message-59864.html#p59864

This requirement applies to every bullion dealer in the country, not just Bullionmark - so the title of this thread is not particularly fair.

Jimsilver said:
I then specified that I wished to cancel my order to maintain my privacy, to which I was penalised a $95.00 fee.
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Seeing as you were already ordering from an online dealer, the only change in your privacy would have been the dealer having a copy of the requested identification documents. Reaching the $5,000 "Know Your Customer" threshold is not a reporting threshold to AUSTRAC.

Pretty much every large dealer in the country will also have a "stop loss" or cancellation fee on bullion orders as well.
 
I think they should not TAKE YOUR MONEY until you are eligible to buy.
They are basically penalizing you because they neglected to inform you on the contrition of sale.
They are makeing the same profit from you regardless you buy or not.
 
goldpelican,

If this is the case then why does it not apply for everyone. I know a few people that have a total order that exceeds way above what I've ordered, and they haven't had to fill out a form.

Secondly, I was under the assumption that this rule only applied in one single transaction, not an accumulation over time. If this is the case, it should be clearly displayed on the website.

Giddyup Jimisilver
 
As for the reason I titled this thread, was not to discredit BULLIONMARK but rather to inform the good people on this forum.

I do not wish them to acquire losses due to assumptions.

This is a warning for people who buy from any dealer, I used BULLIONMARK as a description of the facts.

Giddyup Jimsilver
 
mmm i don't like the sounds of this...

I too think dealers need to be more upfront about their policies. If this is the case then so be it, but it should be clearly displayed on their site.

I also thought it only applied if the order was made in a single transaction and not an accumulation over time.

Out of good practice, i think BullionMark should not charge "Jimsilver" the $95 exit fee. If this was done to me I would be very unhappy.

I think it's poor practice to charge an exit fee about a rule that is not clearly displayed.
 
Jimsilver, the AUSTRAC rules say that dealers can ask for ID for transactions as little as $10 if they want to as part of their anti-money laundering policy. The fact that they don't actually tell you what their policy is until you run afoul of it is the issue and yes, my understanding is also that the $5000 limit on purchases before ID is required is a per transaction limit rather than an accumulated transaction value over a period of time (as far as AUSTRAC is concerned, otherwise they would have published something saying so).

The $95 cancellation fee is pretty iffy as you haven't technically completed a sale and therefore don't have a binding contract with the merchant. Without a contract, they have no reason to take money from you. This is why the terms and conditions of sale, including the requirement to produce ID, should be clearly explained before accepting your order. Trying to slip it in before the merchant completes their part of the transaction is just shonky.

I'm not sure exactly about the standing case law in contract "certainty" (which is what the issue is here), but you might find this site helpful if you want to try getting your $95 back.

[Edit] Forgot the link to contract law overview: http://www.australiancontractlaw.com/
 
Hey guys thanks for your support & information on this issue.

I'm led to believe that BULLIONMARK rep. reads this forum so I will leave this issue up to his discretion as to what comes of it.

I'm just a little fish battling against the Evil Empire ( JP Morgan )

Giddyup Jimsilver
 
This is why I don't buy from dealer who insistently ask for ID. ABC sydney don't give a rat ass with ID requirement even if you buy 3 days in a row with $4999 each purchase. They have reasonable price, have over the counter transaction, no fuss about ID gathering, overall ABC scored 10/10 when it comes to privacy.

They make buying PM as easy as buying Chinese takeout. This is how it should be with anything.

This ID requirement is a government control, they wanna know what you do with your money, what I do with my money is my business I appreciate it if a bunch of bureaucrats keep their noses away...
 
Just popped over the BULLIONMARK website. Terms and Conditions are linked to from the footer of the homepage.

Cancellation of Orders

All cancellations are subject to our market loss policy plus a $95 cancellation fee.
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AUSTRAC

Under the Anti-Money Laundering and Counter-Terrorism Financing Act 2006, it is an Australian legal requirement for all bullion dealers and other financial institutions to collect information about clients under certain circumstances. You can find our more by visiting the AUSTRAC website or contacting AUSTRAC on 1300 021 037 or help_desk@austrac.gov.au. BULLIONMARK will inform you when AUSTRAC requirements are required. AUSTRAC requirements will be automatically triggered by absolute or cumulative purchases above AUD$5,000. However BULLIONMARK reserves the right to request AUSTRAC information at its own discretion and will do so for credit card orders below $AUD5000. Important note: If we have requested AUSTRAC information from you, no shipments can be made until the AUSTRAC documentation is on file. Refusal to submit AUSTRAC documentation may trigger our market cancellation or market loss policy.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you've encountered exactly what was disclosed on the website.
 
goldpelican said:
Sounds like you've encountered exactly what was disclosed on the website.
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This info should be clearly displayed and not hidden amongst a 4000 word document. Nothing more to say.
 
kram said:
PLEASE READ THE TERMS OF SERVICE BEFORE PROCEEDING

I don't see what the problem is.
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+1

Buying silver from a dealer shouldn't be any different to buying any other investment where you read the prospectus or PDS first. Read the T's & C's.
 
kram I don't have a problem.

Its only $95 but I think BULLIONMARK has got a problem now that good people on this forum are informed about the $5000 limit.

Besides do u read the fine print on ur car or house insurance.

Give me a break, all they need to do is clearly state on their website the $5000 limited so ur average battler is clearly informed.

Giddyup Jimsilver
 
This is probably a good thread to hilight that we need to check T&C when buying.

Return/cancellation polices serve a purpose, but can also be applied or not at the discretion of the business.

I applaud and commend those business that instead choose to be client friendly.

goldpelican said:
Just popped over the BULLIONMARK website. Terms and Conditions are linked to from the footer of the homepage.
AUSTRAC

AUSTRAC requirements will be automatically triggered by absolute or cumulative purchases above AUD$5,000.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you've encountered exactly what was disclosed on the website.
Click to expand...

Even motor licence demerit points have an expirey period.

Looks like Bullionmark might close the trap on you even if you spread your purchase over 10 years!

I don't think that is at all what Austrac has in mind.
 
Jimsilver said:
Its only $95 but I think BULLIONMARK has got a problem now that good people on this forum are informed about the $5000 limit.
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I take issue with this - the $5000 limit for customer identification requirements is a regulation that EVERY bullion dealer in Australia is required to comply with. You'll find some other dealers are far more restrictive and require certified copies of ID for any sized order.
 
Jimsilver said:
kram I don't have a problem.

Its only $95 but I think BULLIONMARK has got a problem now that good people on this forum are informed about the $5000 limit.

Besides do u read the fine print on ur car or house insurance.

Give me a break, all they need to do is clearly state on their website the $5000 limited so ur average battler is clearly informed.

Giddyup Jimsilver
Click to expand...
TBH, I haven't purchased anything from BM but have actually read their terms in the past. So was aware of their requirements once you hit 5k over a period of time
 
Looks like they are legally protected, but like in the insurance policies you won't find out the fine details until you need them. In case if you order is under $95 they even can send a debt collector .
 
Oh well lesson learnt at a small price.

Lesson 1 - read the terms & conditions

Lesson 2 - only buy bullion using cash

Lesson 3 - hold onto ur bullion when the Evil Empire shakes the tree



Giddyup Jimsilver
 
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