Beware of scammers trying to sell Libertads

mmissinglink said:
Stark, plenty of these sellers do know the difference....especially the one's that I contact and inform them that their listing is misleading and I explain why. I have contacted plenty of sellers over the years to notify them that they are misleading with their dis- and misinformation.

Some (which is already too many) sellers don't have an ounce of integrity or honesty...they don't care that they are scamming unsuspecting buyers.


From your links, the son-montuno auction is clear and when I place my cursor over the pics, a large version of that image pops on screen from which quite readily one can see the difference in luster between the fields and the device. Darker shadows and lighter highlights on a surface generally means a more highly reflective surface (like a proof-like finish) than a tone which contains less contrast (more uniform midtones) like an ordinary bu finish.


With the celebritystars auction, the photos are not so well taken to show the distinctive difference between the luster in the fields vs the luster in the devices. That seller likely didn't use good lighting technique. But still, if you look carefully, you can see the higher contrast in the Winged Victoria statue.

Both these auctions make it clear that what you are bidding on is definitely the PL version.

There's no misleading there.


The EMK page shows genuine PL versions.



A seller can can a PL version graded and therefore the wood box becomes empty. But if selling that slabbed coin the seller then ought to have the wooden box be part of the sale. If the seller chooses to use the wooden box then the seller must make it explicitly and abundantly clear in the title and description that the coin being put in that box is NOT the original PL version but rather the common unlimited mintage bu version.


The scamming sellers do not make it abundantly clear that this is the case even though they are well aware that these coins can be easily confused if such a thing ( selling a bu coin in a PL wooden box) is done.



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For son montuno I didn't write it's not a PL.
Same as for EMK.
I just listed a few examples after SM where is not so clear at least at the first look.;)
 
Recently I saw Aztec calendar being sold on eBay without the COA. Quite many people placed bid on it. Seller stated there is no COA in the auction. Personally I would never buy such a coin. Unless it's so hard to get it.

Just a few days ago somebody sold box for 7 coin Libertad set. I guess he graded the coins or he doesn't like to keep the box, etc. It might happen that this box will be later sold as 7 coin Lib set without COA.
Or smbdy just collects boxes.
 
in the secondary market, all parts are for sale.

1/3 or 2/3 or 1/3 + one coin... it can go in any combinations. etc
 
Stark said:
mmissinglink said:
Stark, plenty of these sellers do know the difference....especially the one's that I contact and inform them that their listing is misleading and I explain why. I have contacted plenty of sellers over the years to notify them that they are misleading with their dis- and misinformation.

Some (which is already too many) sellers don't have an ounce of integrity or honesty...they don't care that they are scamming unsuspecting buyers.


From your links, the son-montuno auction is clear and when I place my cursor over the pics, a large version of that image pops on screen from which quite readily one can see the difference in luster between the fields and the device. Darker shadows and lighter highlights on a surface generally means a more highly reflective surface (like a proof-like finish) than a tone which contains less contrast (more uniform midtones) like an ordinary bu finish.


With the celebritystars auction, the photos are not so well taken to show the distinctive difference between the luster in the fields vs the luster in the devices. That seller likely didn't use good lighting technique. But still, if you look carefully, you can see the higher contrast in the Winged Victoria statue.

Both these auctions make it clear that what you are bidding on is definitely the PL version.

There's no misleading there.


The EMK page shows genuine PL versions.



A seller can can a PL version graded and therefore the wood box becomes empty. But if selling that slabbed coin the seller then ought to have the wooden box be part of the sale. If the seller chooses to use the wooden box then the seller must make it explicitly and abundantly clear in the title and description that the coin being put in that box is NOT the original PL version but rather the common unlimited mintage bu version.


The scamming sellers do not make it abundantly clear that this is the case even though they are well aware that these coins can be easily confused if such a thing ( selling a bu coin in a PL wooden box) is done.


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For son montuno I didn't write it's not a PL.
Same as for EMK.
I just listed a few examples after SM where is not so clear at least at the first look.;)
Click to expand...


Yes, I understood your point the first time; I was simply pointing out what I see as obvious....which means I was basically agreeing with you. The SM and EMK listings are not confusing to me.




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He has not said anything false in his listing.

His title is:

2012 Kilo (32.15 ounces) 999 Silver Mexico Libertad in Capsule & Wood Display

In item condition (which is right below the title) he states:

"Pristine Condition/Tone Free, ****This is the Bullion version of the coin, not the PL- Including the wooden case from the PL version for easier storage & display****"

That seems pretty clear to me.

What should he change so it is not deceptive?
 
I think mmissinglink said that listing was wrong some time ago and seller didn't change it even after he told him it's wrong.
Might be that he visited forum and saw people complaining about listing.;)

There are many sellers who were for example using Ron's NORFED page and copying his text without quoting him.

Additionally CIT reported fake Tiffany Art coins on eBay, yet they didn't do anything. Yet they deleted 2 auctions just when my friend sent money.

So...
 
mtforpar,

You have a very warped sense of transparency and honesty.

The title is very misleading for all the reasons I already noted. The auction description is very misleading for all the reasons I already noted. The photos are quite problematic for all the reasons I already noted. All this adds up to a deceptive listing and an attempt to scam unsuspecting buyers.



Obviously, what the seller ought to do in order for that auction to not be deceptive is to emphatically state in the title and description that the coin being offered is NOT the PL version but rather the common bu version put into the box originally designed only for the PL version.


I would even give a pass on the problematic photos if he did exactly that. But the fact that the seller uses problematic photos and intentionally chooses to NOT note in the title and description that the coin in not the PL version but rather the common bu version put into the box originally designed only for the PL version shows me that he chooses deception over transparency.




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I am sorry to see you write the following: "You have a very warped sense of transparency and honesty". There is no need to call my honesty into question. This is just a discussion about what is and is not deceptive. Various viewpoints and perspectives are welcome. It is not personal.

--------------The statement above stands alone.

So you are criticizing him and saying he is deceptive for what he did "not" say. He actually says 1 sentence into the listing "...This is the Bullion version of the coin, not the PL- Including the wooden case from the PL version...". So you are calling him deceptive for saying the things you would like to see 1 sentence too late?

The coin is also not a lot of other things. Should he list them all too? It is just not practical to list what something is "not".

Lighting in photos is always a tricky thing and different lighting conditions yield different looks for the coin photo. Many times on coins I take two photos with vastly different lighting conditions to help a customer understand what they are buying and even then sometimes I feel as though I have not accurately portrayed the "real" look of the coin.

He has provided a photo that in a 1-second glance one can determine it is not a proof-like coin, he never claims to be providing a proof-like coin, and he further emphasized that the coin is the bullion version. That seems like a seller trying to ensure one understands what they are buying, not one trying to deceive.
 
mtforpar said:
I am sorry to see you write the following: "You have a very warped sense of transparency and honesty". There is no need to call my honesty into question. This is just a discussion about what is and is not deceptive. Various viewpoints and perspectives are welcome. It is not personal.

--------------The statement above stands alone.

So you are criticizing him and saying he is deceptive for what he did "not" say. He actually says 1 sentence into the listing "...This is the Bullion version of the coin, not the PL- Including the wooden case from the PL version...". So you are calling him deceptive for saying the things you would like to see 1 sentence too late?

The coin is also not a lot of other things. Should he list them all too? It is just not practical to list what something is "not".

Lighting in photos is always a tricky thing and different lighting conditions yield different looks for the coin photo. Many times on coins I take two photos with vastly different lighting conditions to help a customer understand what they are buying and even then sometimes I feel as though I have not accurately portrayed the "real" look of the coin.

He has provided a photo that in a 1-second glance one can determine it is not a proof-like coin, he never claims to be providing a proof-like coin, and he further emphasized that the coin is the bullion version. That seems like a seller trying to ensure one understands what they are buying, not one trying to deceive.
Click to expand...



You don't get to dictate what everyone else should think. I am allowed to put into question your sense of honesty and transparency based on precisely what you've written just as I am allowed to compliment you based on what you've stated....which I have in another thread(s). The fact that you continue to defend deception in a listing is why I have questioned your integrity....why on earth should that be a problem to you?

Besides, I don't see you going around defending me when others have made comments toward me that I could certainly take offense to. Double standards aren't exactly something I look favorably upon.


He does not state anything clarifying about the coin in the title or description part of his auction. If he did, as I've stated more than once, I'd find that a good thing. I've already addressed the problem of the seller making a note in the "Item Condition" box....that's not at all the appropriate place to clarify what the coin is and isn't.


As for your absolutely ludicrous comment "The coin is also not a lot of other things. Should he list them all too?" I find it difficult that even you are seriously suggesting something as nonsensical as this. But in the event that you are somehow seriously asking such a thing, I will ask you if you even bothered to look at that listing? Do you not see that he is advertising a kilo Libertad in a PL version box with poor quality photos and no mention whatsoever in the title or description area of this listing that the Libertad is NOT the PL version but rather the common bu version?????????????????

Seriously mtforpar? There's nothing at all reasonable about your question. No one is even remotely suggesting that the seller mention that the coin is not a bed mattress, light post, lamp shade, wooden fork, tractor trailer, octopus, or a zillion other unrelated things. If you still can't comprehend the very simple and short thing I am suggesting that the seller clarify, then either you are not reading what I've clearly written or you have serious reading comprehension issues.

As for the photos, I've already corroborated my position on this as I've stated by asking a friend who has not so much experience with coins and is not familiar like you and I are with the difference between the look of the bu and PL Libertad....and she was unable to be certain with the sellers photos but she was absolutely able to distinguish the difference between a bu and PL kilo Lib based on photos used by other sellers.

So I know you are wrong to claim that the photos are perfectly good photos....they absolutely are not.


I don't think there's any reason for me to discuss this with you any further. Multiple times I've pointed out why objectively there's many avoidable and serious problems with that listing....problems that render the listing deceptive. That you don't see this is not my problem.


Have a terrific day!




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I am not trying to dictate what anyone thinks. What I would hope for is a respectful dialogue about a topic. Calling someone's integrity into question does not meet that standard. People will have different views about topics. That is the nature of the human condition.

I won't dialogue further as you request but I stand behind the fact that I would have no problem buying the coin, with its description, and photos and totally understand exactly what I would be receiving.
 
alor said:
http://www.facebook.com/RoseyNews/videos/1181835335196638/
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Poor donkey :(


jOyQLex.jpg


ZVhi8NW.jpg
 
mtforpar said:
Hmmmm. Looks like MCM joined the party. Ethical? Unethical?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2016-Mo-Mex...879964?hash=item58e63d021c:g:k-gAAOSw8gVYB3ZD
Click to expand...



MCM must have changed their auction or something because yesterday they announced their "Available for the first time: 2016 Kilo Silver Libertads!" and one of the auction links was for a kilo bullion Libertad in the PL kilo OMP. It made me wonder for a second or two whether the Mexico Mint is actually now shipping the bullion coin in the fancy and costly wood box and packaging.....but I didn't think so. And now that I don't see any of their auctions with the bullion kilo Lib in the PL kilo box, I think they must have gotten complaints from others.

If that's what they did (removed the auction with the bu kilo Lib in a PL kilo box because of customer pressure, then this actually is a good thing and bodes well for them in my view.





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Original verbiage in the listing with a photo of a Bullion coin in the PL OGP in the link I provided:

2016-Mo Mexico 1 Kilo Silver Libertad Onza
GEM BU (Original Mint Packaging)

changed to:

2016-Mo Mexico 1 Kilo Silver Libertad Onza
GEM BU (Original Mint Capsule)
 
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