An educated response

STC said:
U just say "Gold & silver are bad investments..", crazy talk! They act well as a hedge against inflation, use them to store or increase your buying power. They may not pay dividends, be eaten or lived in but they cost little to store, have not maintence plus are non-perishable. While the supply of fiat increases it self dilutes its own value but when pm is consumed it inflates the price of existing stock & limited consumables will win vs anything as long as it remains useful & until it is totally consumed the value will increase. I think pm's are a great investment.
Whether gold & silver 'act well' against inflation or not, is not determined the metal, but by your trading behaviour.
If you just go for the easiest method, being buying whatever the price is, you have a big (if not huge) chance to end up worser than with a bank account.
Take for ex todays silver price. It's 3 times the bottom of 2008 and 2,5 times the average of 2008.
Did we see the prices of the stuff we want also tripling since 2008? No.
So we should be very careful in paying even more. Because every silver price uptrend is a gain in terms of purchasing power, and be sure that alot sit ready to 'grab the profit' at those higher prices. Just look at 2011's $50 to $32,5 drop. I saw people saying that they went all in physical abit under $50. That is a horror scenario, because there is nothing left to average down with it, and even if over some years that $50 silver price returns, even as a bottom, other prices will have risen too, and that $50 silver will represent much less purchasing power than nowadays.
And that's something that alot forget, when they judge their silver story. Those that in 1980 bought silver at $50 and held it, well, they did see $50 last year. Hurah finally break even. Well, it's not. In 1980 you could buy way more with $50 than last year.

So the question whether gold / silver is a good or bad 'investment' is a wrong question, because it depends on something that isn't included in the question. On what you paid for it and the longer term lasting price you saw afterwards.
 
a lot of that is true , but pre 2011 prices where to low and 2011 they were to high, markets will always seek balance and sometimes they over shot, in the last 12 months or more it has been trying to find its right point, i believe its at its right value now.

so buying in now i might have to sit a few years or more to see any gains in $ value.

we all know what happened in 1980 am sure a lot of paper traders made some $ but that's about it.
 
uuuuuuuumm said:
a lot of that is true , but pre 2011 prices where to low and 2011 they were to high, markets will always seek balance and sometimes they over shot, in the last 12 months or more it has been trying to find its right point, i believe its at its right value now.

so buying in now i might have to sit a few years or more to see any gains in $ value.

we all know what happened in 1980 am sure a lot of paper traders made some $ but that's about it.
You say pre 2011 prices were too low.
You say 2011 prices were too high.
But that's your opinion of silvers value.
Other people have other opinions of silvers value.
All together, they make the price what it is.
I take things / markets / people like they are.

On some future moments, you gonna sell silver.
Imagine its purchasing power / price is lower than what you judged as 'right'.
Imagine you tell people that that lower price isn't correct, that it should be higher and that you thus ask more.
What will people do, you think?
What would you do in their place?
Right.
Buying it elsewhere.
And that works. We didn't see real shortages. All we saw were some temp shortages for specific shapes (certain coins), which is quite expectable, with such a fluctuating price / demand.

What is the situation now? This last silver price uptrend from $27 to $35,5 was due to those that buy it on the Comex futures market. They added 40000 positions since mid augusts $27, which is 200 Moz zilver (the annual total supply is 1000 Moz, the Comex depositories hold 140 Moz, the Exchange Traded Fund Ishares Silver Trust SLV holds 318 Moz.
If they really thought that the higher price was a new bottom, why did they then agree to buy in the future? They could just have directly bought the silver then.
The reality is that they actually aren't interested in silver, only in the dollars from the people on its market. That's why physical delivery / physical settlement is very rare.

The same, but in a lesser degree, also applies to SLV.
Last year march+april, they bought over 200 tonnes silver, 6,43 Moz per day, for 37 market days in a row, for a grand total of 7639 tonnes more.
They drove the price up from $34 to $50, bringing that SLV stock of above (where I gave the 318 Moz number) from 11000 tonnes on 9 march 2011 to 18639 tonnes end april.
Then they dumped it all again, and even more (todays 318 Moz is 9900 tonnes, less than the 11000 tonnes on 9 march 2011).

So this recent $27 > $35,5 (now again $32) is only backed by the least buy and hold fashioned side of the silver market. I don't name that 'stability' lol.

Markets do not seek balance. Markets are situations, they do nothing, it's people on them acting, and some people are not on the silver market to buy something (here silver) that the central planners/bankers cannot water in value as easy as their fiatcurrencies, but to chew out free dollars (in terms of purchasing power) from others on its market. Much like pocket thieves. Pocket thieves on the market place aren't interested in what is for sale there, but what is in the pockets of the people that are interested.
'Playing' with silver is not a crime like a pocket thiefs act, but it has the very same consequence, so having a strategy (price targeting) to avoid being the one pickpocketed, is needed aswell as a silver stacker, or you likely end up being inflicting the same or higher loss than dollars had have been. It doesn't help to avoid a 40% purchasing power loss over a decade, by buying silver at a price that was bloated 40%. And more is worser, being that staying in dollars had been a better choice.
 
gold and silver are NOT investments, in the same way that nor is Life Insurance.
 
I'm in silver because I want to make money when I sell it.

Have I got it all wrong? Was I meant to use words like 'investment' 'hedge' 'protection against inflation' or some other terms?

I just wanna maka the cashola
 
geewiz said:
I'm in silver because I want to make money when I sell it.

Have I got it all wrong? Was I meant to use words like 'investment' 'hedge' 'protection against inflation' or some other terms?

I just wanna maka the cashola
You had money.
You swapped it for money
You want to swap it for money.
I don't see a 'making'.
So maybe that word is wrong?
 
There is a time and a place for everything. I believe that very soon that it will not matter whether you have physical gold/silver or are invested in mines because the gains will be large. It is the get out point that must be considered. You have to consider all the risks when you buy ( mining company failing / silver being robbed from closet ) but consider when you sell. What will be the most liquid market? We all dream of selling on the final point of a parabolic blow off but how do you do that with a lot of mixed silver? Multipliers mean nothing if you can't take advantage when you most want to. We are all in it to make money. The words investment, hedge, etc all stand for one thing...making money....
 
tolly_67 said:
There is a time and a place for everything. I believe that very soon that it will not matter whether you have physical gold/silver or are invested in mines because the gains will be large. It is the get out point that must be considered. You have to consider all the risks when you buy ( mining company failing / silver being robbed from closet ) but consider when you sell. What will be the most liquid market? We all dream of selling on the final point of a parabolic blow off but how do you do that with a lot of mixed silver? Multipliers mean nothing if you can't take advantage when you most want to. We are all in it to make money. The words investment, hedge, etc all stand for one thing...making money....
I see making money as producing something that others pay you for.
The rest, is either speculation reward, either money for nothing, either theft. The last two distinguished by the concept 'legal'.
I'm not in silver to make money, but to preserve money. My goal is to be able to buy the same as I could have bought now. I didnt produce a damn thing, or didnt help in any way, by just piling up silver, so why should I be rewarded?
 
Pirocco said:
I didnt produce a damn thing, or didnt help in any way, by just piling up silver, so why should I be rewarded?

Speculation reward.
Hypothetically, you had foresight that others didn't, stockpiled a commodity with potential for future demand, and got rewarded handsomely.
Like it or not, silver for wealth preservation is still speculation. :)
 
wrcmad said:
Pirocco said:
I didnt produce a damn thing, or didnt help in any way, by just piling up silver, so why should I be rewarded?

Speculation reward.
Hypothetically, you had foresight that others didn't, stockpiled a commodity with potential for future demand, and got rewarded handsomely.
Like it or not, silver for wealth preservation is still speculation. :)

That reminds me. On the parallel version of this thread (which seems to have died in favour of this one) I was interested in your/clawhammer's/others view on whether my (arbitrary) distinction of what is an investment made sense based on your past discussions.

http://forums.silverstackers.com/message-419614.html#p419614
 
bordsilver said:
That reminds me. On the parallel version of this thread (which seems to have died in favour of this one) I was interested in your/clawhammer's/others view on whether my (arbitrary) distinction of what is an investment made sense based on your past discussions.

http://forums.silverstackers.com/message-419614.html#p419614


bordsilver said:
It sounds like you guys have had investment vs speculation discussions in the past so apologies in advance for any repetition or resurrecting topics you thought were dead.

Without thinking too hard about exact definition, I was referring to investment as doing an activity that is actively trying to accumulate profit (however you want to define profits). Hence, shares, university degrees, rental property, new machinery, term deposits etc.

In contrast holding physical property (notably currency/gold in this particular topic) is not actively "doing something". It sits there as a lump. A speculative element comes in when you decide to hold a particular lump of property for a period of time with the expectation of it having value/purchasing power in the future. A greater speculative element comes in as wrmcad's comment when you specifically decide to hold a particular lump of property versus another (nearly equivalent) form for expected higher future purchasing power which was my currency speculation example.

So active vs non-active. Active almost always come with some form of counter party risk but with the expectation of "interest" greater than purchasing power (i.e. get back more than what you put in) whereas the non-active (e.g. gold, A$ under the mattress) principally comes with minimal or no-counter party risk with expectation of similar purchasing power (i.e. get back what you paid for it).

Given your past discussions etc, does that make any sense or do am I deluding myself?

I agree with Clawhammer:
Clawhammer said:
Don't get suckered into the old "Investment vs Speculation" argument. It's just a war of symantics, all investment is speculation and vis versa.

IMO, it is just semantics. Whether active or passive, investment is speculation, with one dangerous difference - those who prefer to tell themselves they are investing are assuming a guaranteed positive return on their speculation. There is an imposing delusion that their speculation is "safe as houses". Why is this dangerous? Because in the erronous belief that they are on a sure thing, "investors" usually leave themselves fully exposed to any potential losses. A classic example of this type of exposure is physical PM's.

While these "clever passive investors" will usually scoff at the active investors they label "reckless speculators", it is usually the active investor who has their risk covered, or exits early with minimal losses if things turn pear-shaped. This delusion of immunity is usually based on ignorance, arrogance, lack of knowledge, or unconcious self-denial to risk exposure.

I don't think active and passive speculation can be distinguished by the level of counter-party risk, it is more defined by the relative turnover of assets.
 
I'm in silver because I don't want others to make money from me..... As in holding fiat currency that bankers make profit by creating.
 
wrcmad said:
Speculation reward.
Hypothetically, you had foresight that others didn't, stockpiled a commodity with potential for future demand, and got rewarded handsomely.
Like it or not, silver for wealth preservation is still speculation. :)
No it's not.
Like it or not, speculation is foreseeing peoples needs.
If your weather insight makes you foresee a bad harvest, you can decide to speculate by buying what is harvested on the moments of surpluses / easy production.
Later on, when bad harvest became indeed reality, you sell your stocks at the higher price then, and you make people happy that otherwise couldnt have bought it.
Speculation drives the price up in times of surplus (due to the extra demand).
Speculation drives the price down in times of shortage (due to the extra supply).
Speculation stabilizes the price.
Speculation makes financial planning thus easier.
Speculation gives people time to adapt to changing market conditions.
The speculator receives a gain because he's rewarded for the insight that resulted in above positive things.
Speculation is a win-win situation.

This 'play' on the silver market has nothing to do foreseeing peoples needs / bad harvests.
It's all about outspeeding / frontrunning others in buying / selling.
It helps nobody, instead it inflicts others pain / even more problems.
It foresees nothing on the real market level. The silver merely acts as an excuse product to get other peoples money.
It destabilizes the price, causing huge fluctuations, disrupts financial planning, inflicts heavy losses and people leaving the market disappointed.
This 'play' is nothing more than what the central planning govts / banks do themselves.

That's just how it is, and naming it 'making money' is just an attempt to hide those rather inpopular / inconvenient characteristics. :)
 
bordsilver said:
That reminds me. On the parallel version of this thread (which seems to have died in favour of this one) I was interested in your/clawhammer's/others view on whether my (arbitrary) distinction of what is an investment made sense based on your past discussions.

http://forums.silverstackers.com/message-419614.html#p419614
That confused me quite at first, until I noticed two threads with same titles were created in different forum sections.
I, as a stacker, see fellow stackers as buddies. We share the same goal: escaping the theft of the govt/banks and the parasitic intrest groups behind them.
I would have a personal moral problem with 'offloading' silver at $50 to a fellow stacker, knowing that that fellow stacker will end up with silver bought at $50 to then see $30.
Such behaviour of me would make me equal crap as the central planning club. They do the very same, monetary inflation is nothing more than a massive frontrun operation, they create dollars, they spend them at the old prices, their demand that is backed by zero production drives the old prices up, and then other people have to pay the higher prices, thus getting less for their original dollars. And that's why I will never buy silver as paper, and I also won't say a fellow stacker that the price gonna explode, go to the moon, trains leaving the station and more of that crap that misleads people, to then blame things like 'Cartel' and 'JPM' and whatever, alike my own dump was different than what I blame them for.

But that's just me. Apparently others have no problem with it, and it's their right to chose that method, but it's also my right to do my best to avoid my fiatmoney going to them instead of to silver, so I only buy when most of those 'players' are out (thus post-dump). That worked reasonable upto now. Of course, things can change, if alot others leave the silver market, well, I'm hurt too. But at least I can only blame myself for my choice, while a bank account is just watching powerless another decade. By buying silver, I took control myself.
Alot seem to miss the element that it is not the metal that will make you do better, but your trading behaviour, in both price-wise (buying when alot 'players' are in) and human (dumping peaksilver on a fellow stacker) terms. A player-only market is a suicidal story, comparable to X wolves with no sheeps. A gain implies a pain elsewhere. It's just a shift. It adds nothing to the market. It's a zero sum game. A piramid scheme that is bound to collapse. These bogus traders need the real traders (that's us stackers that hedge against inflation) to avoid their own extinction. That alone, says it all.
 
Man, my head is spinning... OK, a few questions:

Pirocco said:
wrcmad said:
Speculation reward.
Hypothetically, you had foresight that others didn't, stockpiled a commodity with potential for future demand, and got rewarded handsomely.
Like it or not, silver for wealth preservation is still speculation. :)
No it's not.
Like it or not, speculation is foreseeing peoples needs.
I thought that is exactly what I said above??? Foresight vs foreseeing? That is the same thing. You stack because you foresee even your own needs... still speculation because there is no guaruntee you are correct in your forsight.

Pirocco said:
Speculation drives the price up in times of surplus (due to the extra demand).
Speculation drives the price down in times of shortage (due to the extra supply).
Speculation stabilizes the price.
Forget the harvest references, not sure what you mean. Now I'm confused. But I call BS.

Pirocco said:
The speculator receives a gain because he's rewarded for the insight that resulted in above positive things.
Speculation is a win-win situation.

Again, I thought this is what I said above???? Foresight vs insight??? WTF is the difference??? :rolleyes:

Pirocco said:
This 'play' on the silver market has nothing to do foreseeing peoples needs / bad harvests.
It's all about outspeeding / frontrunning others in buying / selling..

This is what I said! I can't tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing???

Pirocco said:
It helps nobody, instead it inflicts others pain / even more problems.
It foresees nothing on the real market level. The silver merely acts as an excuse product to get other peoples money.
It destabilizes the price, causing huge fluctuations, disrupts financial planning, inflicts heavy losses and people leaving the market disappointed.
This 'play' is nothing more than what the central planning govts / banks do themselves.

That's just how it is, and naming it 'making money' is just an attempt to hide those rather inpopular / inconvenient characteristics. :)

Fk it. Now I'm just too confused to deal with this anymore... :lol: You are now contradicting your previous statements??? I'm going to get another six-pack to help me comprehend what you have just written. I probably won't be back. :)
 
Holding silver is a good thing.... speculating, investing,preservation of wealth, greed....place yourselves in a box, but it won't be forever...things change....people change, hairstyles change (apologies to "Top Secret" ). There will come a time to roll it, spend it, donate it....place yourselves in another box.....no-one is buying it as a paper weight
 
wrcmad said:
Man, my head is spinning... OK, a few questions:

I thought that is exactly what I said above??? Foresight vs foreseeing? That is the same thing. You stack because you foresee even your own needs... still speculation because there is no guaruntee you are correct in your forsight.

Forget the harvest references, not sure what you mean. Now I'm confused. But I call BS.

Again, I thought this is what I said above???? Foresight vs insight??? WTF is the difference??? :rolleyes:

This is what I said! I can't tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing???

Fk it. Now I'm just too confused to deal with this anymore... :lol: You are now contradicting your previous statements??? I'm going to get another six-pack to help me comprehend what you have just written. I probably won't be back. :)
Read your own post and put yourself in my place.
What would you think?
Do you name this discussion?
 
Yeah, I was plastered last night when I tried to respond to your post. :rolleyes:
Tonight I am stone-cold sober, and it makes the same amount of sense. :/
 
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