Allocated accounts

SilverTouch

Active Member
Silver Stacker
Just wondering what peoples thoughts are on allocated accounts? and if they have anyone they would recommend?

I see Bullionmoney have an allocated and allocated+ accounts and another is Ainslie.

Also what happens if the company goes under, do you still have legal right over the bullion you held in there vault?
 
XB said:
As does GoldStackers (my personal choice)

Read their terms, do your research. I am more than comfortable with GS holding my unallocated. YMMV

Also, be worthwhile searching as there's been a few threads on the issue - here's a couple to get started:

http://forums.silverstackers.com/message-570995.html#p570995
http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-48635-reputable-company-selling-unallocated-silver.html

I have used goldstackers unallocatted before but had no idea they had an allocated account?



But still does anyone know what happens if the bullion provider goes bust IF you have alloacted?
 
SilverTouch said:
XB said:
As does GoldStackers (my personal choice)

Read their terms, do your research. I am more than comfortable with GS holding my unallocated. YMMV

Also, be worthwhile searching as there's been a few threads on the issue - here's a couple to get started:

http://forums.silverstackers.com/message-570995.html#p570995
http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-48635-reputable-company-selling-unallocated-silver.html

I have used goldstackers unallocatted before but had no idea they had an allocated account?



But still does anyone know what happens if the bullion provider goes bust IF you have alloacted?

This is a tough one, recently a kitchen building company in Queensland went bust. The appointed administrators wouldn't even honour gift cards or people that had money on lay-by for their goods ordered. People were close paying off what they had purchased, but ended up being non-secured creditors at the back of the queue.

Do you own research, personally I am the "hold it own it camp".

Slam
 
Slam said:
SilverTouch said:
XB said:
As does GoldStackers (my personal choice)

Read their terms, do your research. I am more than comfortable with GS holding my unallocated. YMMV

Also, be worthwhile searching as there's been a few threads on the issue - here's a couple to get started:

http://forums.silverstackers.com/message-570995.html#p570995
http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-48635-reputable-company-selling-unallocated-silver.html

I have used goldstackers unallocatted before but had no idea they had an allocated account?



But still does anyone know what happens if the bullion provider goes bust IF you have alloacted?

This is a tough one, recently a kitchen building company in Queensland went bust. The appointed administrators wouldn't even honour gift cards or people that had money on lay-by for their goods ordered. People were close paying off what they had purchased, but ended up being non-secured creditors at the back of the queue.

Do you own research, personally I am the "hold it own it camp".

Slam

In this story i see the gift cards like unallocated as you have share to something you haven't seen. As for allocated you have access to see what you have brought in person but still cant find out what would happen if they were to go bust?
 
Dont get me wrong iv used unallocated through goldstackers and it was great but im thinking more long term
 
The statement could be made that every party between you and your property is a risks=risks+1 and if you want the benefits of another party, you have to accept the risk that comes with it. And as Bullion Baron illustrates with "I've never felt they were adequate enough (on any dealer site I've seen) to make an informed decision.", measuring risk can be hard.
Because essentially this is about law texts, and often these are written in such a way that they leave open doors for those "appointed administrators" to screw and (implicitly) benefit any selected person/side in the story. In other words: your legal rights are the ones they grant you, and often (just follow the news/crises) the many small fish are shifted to the back of the queue, especially when their risk involves getting their property away from govt and buddies hands. Cyprus bank accounts were popular in this aspect. We know what happened.
 
Bullion Baron said:
XB said:
Read their terms, do your research.
Can you expand on this XB? Except for the brief descriptions of products on various dealers sites... are there any other terms you are reading in order to make a decision? I've never felt they were adequate enough (on any dealer site I've seen) to make an informed decision.

I feel more comfortable with self storage in a safe deposit box (mines with a bank, but then some feel that is a risk so go figure :)).
OK so first of, I misread the OP and so my reply was talking about Unallocated :( sorry about that @SilverTouch and @Bullion Baron (and anyone else).

SilverTouch said:
But still does anyone know what happens if the bullion provider goes bust IF you have allocated?
As to allocated, to some extent there is always counter party risk involved as BB alludes to ....

I am of the view that ownership of the metals is yours and only yours. To assist with this it would be better if there was confirmation about the type/brand/make, serial numbers etc to pin down the specific bars further.

I had a vague recollection that on the GS site there used to be something about allocated storage OR it might have been something GP said during a presentation about services offered by GS - either way it was quite a while ago and as its not something that was on my radar (I'm quite happy atm with unallocated) I haven't paid any attention to it.

Again apologies for misreading the OP an sidetracking your question SilverTouch :rolleyes:
 
Bullion Baron said:
Pirocco said:
Because essentially this is about law texts, and often these are written in such a way that they leave open doors for those "appointed administrators" to screw and (implicitly) benefit any selected person/side in the story.
This is a good point. In the event a company went into administration, it's not going to be the friendly dealer face we know and trust who divvies up the assets, it's going to to be the eagle eyed lawyers. So you would want to be very sure from a legal perspective that any ownership rights are iron clad.

Many times the problem arises where to back up legal rights, one has to hire lawyers and go to court, which can be a very expensive and time consuming matter.

The likelihood of a bank going under IMO is much smaller than a private bullion dealer.
 
I prefer to have physical in my immediate possession, but recognise the ease and lower premiums of buying 'digital' metal.

But the most risk I'd accept is an allocated account with a reputable company. I like GoldMoney but BullionVault has the advantage of being able to trade with other account holders.

Both can deliver physical on demand, at your cost and assuming certain conditions are met.


So I have about a 50/50 mix of some 'proximal' physical metal and allocated digital metal.
 
The people who thought they had allocated with this coin dealer from years ago got 50c on the dollar http://members.optusnet.com.au/~slamble/Why_use_CAR.html Unfortunately the link doesn't work anymore but here is the text I kept from it:

This story evolved after Brisbane residents Henry and Lola Hargreave wrote to The Sunday Mail s consumer affairs section "The Fixer" on 18 January 1999 seeking help to find 20 bars of silver bullion which had purchased for $12,900.

The couple had certificates showing the bars were purchased in 1993 and 1994 from the Perth Bullion Exchange, Sydney a "subsidiary" of Elsass Finance Company and supposedly held in safe keeping by that business at its premises in Martin Place, Sydney. However, when the Hargreaves went to collect their bullion in mid-1998 the business had vanished and its telephone numbers were disconnected.

After a conversation with Mrs Hargreave, the writer (who was "The Fixer" at the time) contacted the Perth Mint in Western Australia. But no one at the mint could throw much light on the subject. All they could report was that the Perth Bullion Exchange, Sydney was not related in any way to the mint and that it had been a cash customer in the past. An Internet check of White and Yellow Pages directories for telephone numbers for the Perth Bullion Exchange, Sydney was unsuccessful.

A search of the Queensland Newspapers (then) online library archive (QNIS) for any mention of the business was also fruitless. However an online search of the Australian Securities and Investments Commission site, at http://www.asc.gov.au/, for "Perth Bullion Exchange, Sydney" and "Elsass Finance Company" revealed that both were de-registered business names still listed on the New South Wales Department of Fair Trading database.

But a telephone call to the New South Wales Office for Fair Trading did not help as there was no longer any record of the people behind either business name. An Internet search showed the Australian Securities and Investments Commission did not have a record either.

Then a faint lead emerged. While searching for Elsass Finance Company, it was noticed that there were two other companies with the name Elsass in their title. Returning to the Telstra White Pages web site, a listing was discovered for a person of that name in a Sydney suburb. A call to the number was answered by a woman. She was vague but said that a member of her family who had since died once owned Elsass Finance Company, however he had sold it about 18 years ago to a Mr Walter Henry Scutts. But another search of the Telstra's White Pages Internet directory in every part of Australia for a Scutts with the relevant initials drew a blank, as did searches of the New South Wales and Queensland electoral rolls.

Approaching a dead end, the writer returned to the web and the Australian Yellow Pages directory to search for other Sydney bullion dealers, preferably close to the Martin Place precinct where the Perth Bullion Exchange, Sydney had operated. Several of those dealers were telephoned. One finally recalled Mr Scutts. He said the business had disappeared in what he thought was mid to late 1996.

As it turned out, there had been a Federal Court hearing on 25 February 1999 and another on 11 March involving none other than Walter Henry Scutts, his bullion business and bankruptcy.
Court records subsequently downloaded from the web revealed that Mr Scutts had been declared bankrupt on 20 November 1996 owing nearly $1.4 million after trading successfully for the previous 18 years as the Perth Bullion Exchange, Sydney.

The online court transcripts showed that when trustees took possession of Mr Scutts' assets they found giftware, jewelry, fixtures and fittings, but no bullion. His total assets were listed as close to $751,000, most of which was available for distribution to creditors.

From there it was relatively easy to contact solicitors involved in the case and thence the trustee. The information was passed to Mrs Hargreave. She later telephoned to say the trustee had accepted her right to be listed as a creditor and she and her husband would hopefully receive nearly 50 cents in the dollar, or close to $6,500 from their $13,000 investment.
 
Bron, I'd have thought PerthMint would defend its name and get an order on such a name as 'Perth Bullion Exchange'.
 
JulieW said:
Bron, I'd have thought PerthMint would defend its name and get an order on such a name as 'Perth Bullion Exchange'.

It was always an issue people confusing Perth Mint and Perth Bullion Exchange, but it seems "mint" and "exchange" are not controlled words so nothing we can do about it. I think you would have to have both "perth" and "mint" in a business or trading name for us to stop it legally.
 
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