About that safety deposit box debate....

N

Niveka

New Member
They closed the banks in Greece: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/28/us-eurozone-greece-idUSKBN0P40EO20150628
Also imposed a 60 Euro a day limit on ATM withdrawals, and that's only if you can find one that has money in it.

So for those of you in the SDB camp, imagine yourself as a Greek right now. If it were me I'd be kicking myself in the tookus wishing that I was smart enough to keep some wealth outside of the system, in a place that I control, not in a place someone else controls. Bottom line, your money or your silver in the bank is only real until "they" decide to change the rules on you, and when that happens you have no recourse. I especially liked the "I know my banker and he would give me access to my SDB no matter what, and if he didn't, I know where he lives." argument. Imagine yourself in Greece right now, what are you going to do?
 
There are, of course, risks to every form of storage. When stackers suggest a SDB, I believe most are suggesting to use a private facility, not a bank. Is that safer to use a private SDB rather than a bank SDB? Not necessarily but there are different risks inherent to both. The other concern with a private reputable SDB is that in some regions, that doesn't exist so that's not possible at all.

The city I am in, I have at least a couple of private SDB firms to choose from so if the one I currently use no longer provides the excellent service I desire, then i can switch.


Every individual has to decide for them self based on their location and situation. What works for one may not work for another. Some people swear by SDBoxes some swear off them entirely. Know the risks and benefits then you choose what's right for your needs.



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Bullion Baron said:
What's the problem? You know the contents aren't going to be used in any bail-in (like bank depositors balances might). If the crisis was as bad as Greece you would keep a couple of months living expenses in cash at home... what are you suggesting the risk is to your SDB? Only temporary lack of access?
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Confiscation, looting, theft of SDB's are all possible. Desperate times drives people to do things that may be way outside the law. What bank clerk, suit, or security guard is going to put their life on the line if a group of smart armed men is looking to make a heist of boxes in a bank? None that I know of. It's probably not much better at many private SDB companies.

No bank SDB's that I know of today are insured.




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Niveka said:
They closed the banks in Greece: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/28/us-eurozone-greece-idUSKBN0P40EO20150628
Also imposed a 60 Euro a day limit on ATM withdrawals, and that's only if you can find one that has money in it.

So for those of you in the SDB camp, imagine yourself as a Greek right now. If it were me I'd be kicking myself in the tookus wishing that I was smart enough to keep some wealth outside of the system, in a place that I control, not in a place someone else controls. Bottom line, your money or your silver in the bank is only real until "they" decide to change the rules on you, and when that happens you have no recourse. I especially liked the "I know my banker and he would give me access to my SDB no matter what, and if he didn't, I know where he lives." argument. Imagine yourself in Greece right now, what are you going to do?
Click to expand...

You make the blanket assumption that every "SDB" is inside a bank? This is not necessarily the case, and recent history in Cyprus (let alone now Greece) should tell many that a bank SDB is about the last place you should hold your stack ;)
 
Bullion Baron said:
What's the problem? You know the contents aren't going to be used in any bail-in (like bank depositors balances might). If the crisis was as bad as Greece you would keep a couple of months living expenses in cash at home... what are you suggesting the risk is to your SDB? Only temporary lack of access?
Click to expand...

The risk is whatever they decide it will be, anything from a few months of no access, or could be "we take half", or could be something entirely different, point is your not calling the shots. "The deal" will be whatever they tell you it is because they are in control, not you.
 
Bullion Baron said:
Has there been any recent example of this happening in a developed country? I don't believe safe deposit boxes were touched in the Cyprus bail-in, do you really think it's even remotely likely that they start seizing peoples physical assets in this way? What if there is a property title in the box, do they take half of that? Anything is "possible", but I'll place my bets by keeping it stored in a facility purpose built to do so rather than keeping it at home.
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I will completely agree with you that keeping a significant amount of precious metals at home is probably not very safe. However, here's the contrarian point of view to your argument "Has there been any recent example of this (being confiscation from Safe Deposit Boxes) happening in a developed country?"... and on that point, I would agree with you that there hasn't been. However, equally, prior to events in Cyprus, we would have said that there was no recent example of a bank or government deciding to confiscate a significant portion of the amount held on deposit at a bank either.

Or, to put it another way, "There's a first time for everything".

Is confiscation from an SDB likely? Probably not. Is it less likely at a private vaulting facility as opposed to a bank? Probably.
 
Bullion Baron said:
Niveka said:
Bullion Baron said:
What's the problem? You know the contents aren't going to be used in any bail-in (like bank depositors balances might). If the crisis was as bad as Greece you would keep a couple of months living expenses in cash at home... what are you suggesting the risk is to your SDB? Only temporary lack of access?
Click to expand...
The risk is whatever they decide it will be, anything from a few months of no access, or could be "we take half", or could be something entirely different, point is your not calling the shots. "The deal" will be whatever they tell you it is because they are in control, not you.
Click to expand...
Has there been any recent example of this happening in a developed country? I don't believe safe deposit boxes were touched in the Cyprus bail-in, do you really think it's even remotely likely that they start seizing peoples physical assets in this way? What if there is a property title in the box, do they take half of that? Anything is "possible", but I'll place my bets by keeping it stored in a facility purpose built to do so rather than keeping it at home.
Click to expand...

You may be right, but then again, if your not, I'm sure it would start with "The banks are closed for now, we will let you know when we will let you have access to your stuff." Again, who's in control of your wealth, you or somebody else? So people prefer to have someone else in control, I guess to each his own.
 
As some have said there are pros and cons to each form of storage. Home storage has risks but is probably the best, only because we have PM's for insurance against paper assets failing. These "paper assets" have counter-party risk and are generally being "held" by others for us, so why not have one asset that YOU hold for yourself.

To those who keep their stuff out of the home, doesn't that defeat the purpose of having them to begin with? Home storage risk can come from burglars and fire/tornado, etc, but for most the risk will come from a thieving/drug addict family member or friend, or soon-to- leave spouse, who knows about your stash and where it is hidden. With friends/family like that, maybe a SDB is best for some.

A bank SDB is good for now, but who knows about the future. Further, any SDB can be seized if you get a judgment against you (here in US) and that said box is registered in your name/SSN, etc. Those saying private SDBs are better than banks may not be completely correct. Both are private institutions that can file for bankruptcy at any time (here in the US at least). I believe it would be more difficult for a large, national bank to close its doors and keep your stuff than it would be for some private company with just a location or two in one town. When banks go under here, it is done on close of business Friday, and another bank takes them over and they open again by Monday with a generally seamless transition. The boxes are not touched when this happens. This has happened quite a bit here over the past several years. If we have some cataclysmic financial event that closes everything then it would not matter where you store them (outside your home), in that you might not get them back.

Back to my original idea home storage overall is best, especially if you have them hidden and secured from fire, tornado, etc, and have a limited number of thieving/drug addict family and friends with access.

Just my opinion.

Jim
 
Risk analysis 101:

Risk = cost of loss X probability of loss

probability burglary at home vs probability of SDB closure/confiscation

while neither probability is zero, the probability of burglary is 100 or 1000 times greater than SDB confiscation
 
trew said:
Risk analysis 101:

Risk = cost of loss X probability of loss

probability burglary at home vs probability of SDB closure/confiscation

while neither probability is zero, the probability of burglary is 100 or 1000 times greater than SDB confiscation
Click to expand...



I can't argue with that Trew. But what about someone who stores at home who has a professional security system in place (burglar alarm) with a "hidden" safe/storage area and who does not brag to his friends/relatives about his cool coin collection? Further, in the times we now live, crazy financial breakdowns seem more likely by the day.


Jim
 
trew said:
Risk analysis 101:

Risk = cost of loss X probability of loss

probability burglary at home vs probability of SDB closure/confiscation

while neither probability is zero, the probability of burglary is 100 or 1000 times greater than SDB confiscation
Click to expand...



While I would agree that in general there is a higher risk of theft at one's home than gov't confiscation of SDB contents, that's not the whole story.

To make a valid assessment, I believe we have to look at all risks as well as all costs. If we ignore either we are not making the most informed decisions. As just one example, SDB facilities are susceptible to break-ins...which is a separate risk from confiscation of contents of individual boxes by a gov't / the courts.

I'm not saying there aren't addition risks to storing at home but I have seen arguments for only incomplete risk evaluation and usually this is not coupled with all costs associated with storage in a SDB vs storage at home. My point is, where is there a complete list of risks and costs for storage in a SDB vs storage at home? If none, members of the SS forum can input here to compile (an ongoing) one.




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i queried reserve vault what happens if they go bankrupt. they said they would notify all holders to remove their belongings if that occurred. I take that at face value and sleep well (late) at night with my PM's stored there. certainly i (and many other qld'ers) trust them over a bank.
 
kramer said:
i queried reserve vault what happens if they go bankrupt. they said they would notify all holders to remove their belongings if that occurred. I take that at face value and sleep well (late) at night with my PM's stored there. certainly i (and many other qld'ers) trust them over a bank.
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I'm not sure this passes the sniff test. I believe that at the point they go bankrupt they no longer have the authority to call you to come pick up your belongings. When a company goes bankrupt the courts assume all the companies assets and then decide what a fair distribution would be for the entities that are owed money.
 
trew said:
Risk analysis 101:
Risk = cost of loss X probability of loss
probability burglary at home vs probability of SDB closure/confiscation
while neither probability is zero, the probability of burglary is 100 or 1000 times greater than SDB confiscation
Click to expand...

That would depend upon whether the thief knows about it. I'm sure it's possible to design an in-home safe that is:
a) secure by obscurity (i.e. hidden, not known by anyone)
and/or b) Safe enough to prevent any first attack (e.g. TDR)

You also have to factor in SDB break-in, which is kinda like a plane crash. Very safe, but the unthinkable does occur, and when it does large numbers of boxes are broken into at once.

Me, I'm happy with my allocated PM. Security & insurance taken care of.
 
In answer to a few comments above, if you have your stack at a private storage facility, they offer (providing they're a reputable crowd) quite affordable insurance cover.

It would be utter madness IMO to place ones stack there without insurance on it.
 
Midnight Man said:
In answer to a few comments above, if you have your stack at a private storage facility, they offer (providing they're a reputable crowd) quite affordable insurance cover.

It would be utter madness IMO to place ones stack there without insurance on it.
Click to expand...
Do you have to tell them what is in it? Or would you just choose a dollar amount that you want it insured for?
 
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