50 years ago....

barsenault

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http://therealasset.co.uk/coins-that-go-clunk/

Best of the Web Coins that go clunk
Posted May 12 2014 by Jan Skoyles in Best of the Web 0 Comments

We often refer back to the days when money was backed by gold or silver, however we rarely mention the fact that, in living memory, physical money was once silver and gold. In the article below Alex J. Pollock, former CEO of the Federal Home Loan Bank of Chicago (1991 to 2004), reminds us of a time when physical sound money was driven out of circulation thanks to both government and Gresham's Law.

Gresham's Law, as explained below, is evidence that citizens know exactly what money will hold its value over the long-run and what will not.

When President Lyndon Johnson so proudly signed away the role of silver money, in 1965, his statement (quoted below) demonstrated how little insight governments and central banks have into just what citizens see as money. It is not just something that we use as a medium of exchange, but also a store value.


Read the original article here
The year 2014 is a little noticed 50th anniversary: the anniversary of the disappearance of U.S. silver coins from circulation in 1964. In that year, the American people decided that silver was probably going to be a better store of value than paper dollars, regardless of the pronouncements of the central bankers and politicians of the time. The people were right. At silver's year-end 1960 price of 91 cents an ounce, the 0.77 ounces of silver in a silver dollar had been worth about 70 cents. But by late 1963, it was worth a dollar. Today, with silver at approximately $20 an ounce, the silver in a silver dollar is worth more than $15. (Silver has been as high as $49 an ounce.)

Up to the 1960s, American dimes and quarters (as well as half-dollars and silver dollars in those days) rang when you dropped them on a table. Now they go clunk. This change from coins made of silver, it might be said, is of little practical importance. Yet it symbolizes a profound shift in the behavior of the U.S. government with respect to money, a precursor to the immensely destructive Great Inflation of the 1970s.

Long before the 1960s, all the gold coins and bullion of American citizens had been confiscated by their government under its diktat of 1933. At the same time, the same government defaulted on the bonds it had promised to pay in gold. It took the extreme, indeed despotic, step of making any possession of gold coins or bullion by American citizens illegal and a punishable, criminal offense! It became harder for Americans to protect themselves against money printing. This law, which today is hard to believe was real, lasted four decades, until 1974.

For foreign governments, though not for ordinary people, in 1964 the U.S. government was still promising to redeem its printed dollars for gold on demand, as required by the Bretton Woods System. Bretton Woods had been approved by Congress in 1945, when it had seemed plausible that "the United States dollar and gold are synonymous."1

Two decades later, the U.S. government was highly incensed when France under Charles de Gaulle insisted the promise be kept and took a lot of the gold an excellent financial decision, as it turned out. The government also "discouraged those countries that depended on the United States either for military protection or for economic aidfrom cashing in dollars."2 That might be seen as a fair trade. The U.S. government's 1971 outright reneging on the Bretton Woods promise was still off in the future.

So, 50 years ago, the American populace, unlike the Bank of France, did not have gold, but they still had silver coins. Moreover, they still had dollar bills which were "Silver Certificates." These dollar bills explicitly stated on their face: "This certifies that there has been deposited in the Treasury of The United States of America one silver dollar, payable to the bearer on demand," or "This certifies that there is on deposit in the Treasury of the United States of America one dollar in silver, payable to the bearer on demand." This was an unquestionably clear and definite commitment. These dollar bills were thus actually redeemable notes of the government, not fiat paper currency.

Acting on this promise of redemption in early 1964, as colorfully related in William F. Rickenbacker's contemporary book, Wooden Nickels, "Crowds of people were laying siege to the Treasury Building in Washington, asking for silver dollars."3

What happened next? On March 25, 1964, Secretary of the Treasury Douglas Dillon announced that Silver Certificates would no longer be redeemed for silver dollars tough luck! (A few years later, in 1968, when redemption of Silver Certificates for silver had been permanently stopped, the New York Times wryly commented, "There is some consolation for persons still holding this currency they are still worth face value."4 So much for the certification about "payable to the bearer on demand." By the time of the article, the silver in a silver dollar was worth about $1.50.)

The natural effect of the Treasury's decision was to make people even more inclined to hold on to the silver coins they had or received in payment. On April 5, 1964, Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board William McChesney Martin observed, "There is a chronic, serious coin shortage in the country."5

The Treasury then decided to get the banks to help talk the American populace out of their rational preference for silver over paper. Writes Rickenbacker:

The Treasury Department, "in cooperation with" local banks around the country, began to issue advertisements on radio and television, urging the general public to stop saving coins, to take their coins to their friendly local banks, and to turn them in and get good paper dollars for them, in order to help their government out. Secretary Dillon asked the American Bankers Association to help broadcast anti-piggy bank commercials on 600 television stations and 4,000 radio stations.6

Of course, all this "merely convinced people of the importance of holding their silver."

The disappearance from circulation of U.S. silver coins in 1964 was an instructive application of Gresham's Law that "Bad money drives out good" the "bad" or less valuable money in this case being paper dollars, and the "good," more valuable money being the coins.

In October, 1964, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Robert Wallace denied that the Treasury planned to eliminate or reduce the silver in American coins.

Of course, elimination and reduction of silver coinage happened soon afterwards. The Coinage Act of 1965 eliminated silver dimes and quarters, debased the half dollar from 90 percent to 40 percent silver, and ordered no minting of silver dollars for five years. Recommending it to the Congress, President Lyndon Johnson assured the public, "I want to make it absolutely clear that these changes in our coinage will have no effect on the purchasing power of our coins."7

When signing the act in July 1965, the president said, "We are gathered here today for a very rare and historic occasion the first fundamental change in our coinage [since] the act of 1792." For the new coins, "The mint is geared to get into production quickly and do it on a massive scale." And: "Some have asked whether our silver coins will disappear. The answer is very definitely no."8 A poor prediction.

Writing in 1966 to the contrary, Rickenbaker concluded his book with this thought: "For the first time since 1792, we are on a money backed by nothing better that the politician's pledge. The stage is set for the final inflationary blow-off if that is what our money managers desire."9 Knowing as we do now about the Great Inflation of the 1970s, that was an outstandingly good prediction.

Footnotes

1. Benn Steil, The Battle of Bretton Woods (2013), quoting Harry Dexter White, p. 258.
2. George Selgin, "The Rise and Fall of the Gold Standard in the United States" (June 20, 2013), p. 18.
3. William F. Rickenbacker, Wooden Nickels (1966), p. 84.
4. "An Interesting Year for Collectors," New York Times (December 29, 1968).
5. Quoted in Rickenbacker, p. 86.
6. Rickenbacker, pp. 92-3.
7. Quoted in Rickenbacker, p. 123.
8. Lyndon B. Johnson, Remarks at the Signing of the Coinage Act (July 23, 1965).
9. Rickenbacker, pp. 156-7.
 
Would the "Great Inflation of the 1970s" not have happened if people had silver dollars? As you may know, it was caused by OPEC increasing the price of oil. That's imported inflation. I think the "Great Inflation" would have happened anyway, because everything was dependent on the price of oil (much more so than now) and everything became more expensive.
 
Cheepo said:
Would the "Great Inflation of the 1970s" not have happened if people had silver dollars? As you may know, it was caused by OPEC increasing the price of oil. That's imported inflation. I think the "Great Inflation" would have happened anyway, because everything was dependent on the price of oil (much more so than now) and everything became more expensive.
right, silver is renewable metal ... it can be printed as much as wanted ... <sarcasm mode>

100 silver dollars and 10 barrels of oil ... US trades $100 for 10 barrels
OPEC increases the price of oil to $11
US mints 105 silver dollars ... US trades trades for 9 barrels and keeps some change ...
OPEC realizes that no one gonna give them free printed candy and they put breaks on their price increases ...

the replacement of silver by paper caused high level of inflation
 
Forgive my ignorance, but... Opec sells barrel of oil for 5 silver coins. Opec decides to sell barrel of oil for 20 silver coins.

So, where is your inflation disappearing?

"OPEC realizes that no one gonna give them free printed candy and they put breaks on their price increases ... " Haha. Good one! As if people had a choice (and do they have one now??)
 
50 years ago only...first junk silver coins I ever touched was 3 months ago and it felt like fake money, hollow and waxy. Any one else in my age group I let hold my silver quarters thinks the same thing. The money we are all used to touching and think is real is worthless...sad.

Anyways interesting read.
 
It's the massive stolen asset from American citizen that ever recorded.
( The bigger one is coming in fact I think it already began by QE1, QE2, QE3 ....)
 
HAC888 said:
It's the massive stolen asset from American citizen that ever recorded.
( The bigger one is coming in fact I think it already began by QE1, QE2, QE3 ....)
Or then it's American people's habit to buy things they can't afford, and let people in other countries pay for them. In 1966 1 US$ was worth 4 Swiss Francs. Now 1 US$ is worth 1.1 Swiss Francs. Both countries stopped using silver coins at about the same time. Swiss people buy what they can afford, and don't expect others to pay for them (and don't start wars right and left).

Stop blaming your government for the loss in value of the US$. Take a look at the mirror, and look out of the window at the people walking down the street.
 
Nabullion Dynamite said:
The money we are all used to touching and think is real is worthless...sad.
Please transfer your worthless money to account number 012-895632043-6, HSBC, Shatin Branch, Hong Kong

Thank you! :)
 
Cheepo said:
HAC888 said:
It's the massive stolen asset from American citizen that ever recorded.
( The bigger one is coming in fact I think it already began by QE1, QE2, QE3 ....)
Or then it's American people's habit to buy things they can't afford, and let people in other countries pay for them. In 1966 1 US$ was worth 4 Swiss Francs. Now 1 US$ is worth 1.1 Swiss Francs. Both countries stopped using silver coins at about the same time. Swiss people buy what they can afford, and don't expect others to pay for them (and don't start wars right and left).

Stop blaming your government for the loss in value of the US$. Take a look at the mirror, and look out of the window at the people walking down the street.


People did not drop gold backing currency. The govement did.

I do not think American People or any nationality People want their assets to reduce it purchasing power. (in fact, I do not think anyone with sanity will want that)
Most if not all People that stacks PM want to maintain their asset.( or profit from it)

Well, I take a look at the mirror and I see a person spending on PM with his hard earn extra money that he can afford.( If someone from other countries want to pay for me, welcome to do so)
Looking out the window, I see the multimillion dollars property paid off and no one walking up here due to it too far from the city. :lol:
 
HAC888 said:
Cheepo said:
HAC888 said:
It's the massive stolen asset from American citizen that ever recorded.
( The bigger one is coming in fact I think it already began by QE1, QE2, QE3 ....)
Or then it's American people's habit to buy things they can't afford, and let people in other countries pay for them. In 1966 1 US$ was worth 4 Swiss Francs. Now 1 US$ is worth 1.1 Swiss Francs. Both countries stopped using silver coins at about the same time. Swiss people buy what they can afford, and don't expect others to pay for them (and don't start wars right and left).

Stop blaming your government for the loss in value of the US$. Take a look at the mirror, and look out of the window at the people walking down the street.


People did not drop gold backing currency. The govement did.

I do not think American People or any nationality People want their assets to reduce it purchasing power. (in fact, I do not think anyone with sanity will want that)
Most if not all People that stacks PM want to maintain their asset.( or profit from it)

Well, I take a look at the mirror and I see a person spending on PM with his hard earn extra money that he can afford.( If someone from other countries want to pay for me, welcome to do so)
Looking out the window, I see the multimillion dollars property paid off and no one walking up here due to it too far from the city. :lol:
You are a good man. Unfortunately you seem to be in a minority. Consumer debt in the US is $11.52 trillion (http://time.com/8740/federal-reserve-debt-bankrate-consumers-credit-card/) which means about $36,000 per person (including children and old people).

Adding federal debt, state debt, etc., the total debt for each citizen is $ 194,000, and the total debt per household is $ 759,000 (http://www.usdebtclock.org/). And of course the value of the US$ dropped because the US left the gold standard. Right?
 
Cheepo said:
Nabullion Dynamite said:
The money we are all used to touching and think is real is worthless...sad.
Please transfer your worthless money to account number 012-895632043-6, HSBC, Shatin Branch, Hong Kong

Thank you! :)

Haha, all 1.27$ I have left at the moment....one more day till pay day! I meant worthless as in what it is made out of. Sure its worth its face value which is losing power due to inflation but if it wasn't for that they coins are basically worthless hunks of metal and paper. Perhaps one day some will become collectable be worth more, who knows but I'd rather be passed down a 1$ gold coin then a 1$ gold presidential dollar.
 
Nabullion Dynamite said:
Cheepo said:
Nabullion Dynamite said:
The money we are all used to touching and think is real is worthless...sad.
Please transfer your worthless money to account number 012-895632043-6, HSBC, Shatin Branch, Hong Kong

Thank you! :)

Haha, all 1.27$ I have left at the moment....one more day till pay day! I meant worthless as in what it is made out of. Sure its worth its face value which is losing power due to inflation but if it wasn't for that they coins are basically worthless hunks of metal and paper. Perhaps one day some will become collectable be worth more, who knows but I'd rather be passed down a 1$ gold coin then a 1$ gold presidential dollar.
You should learn to save some money, if all you have left is $1.27 one day before payday. Silver has lost 60% of its value since May 2011 (in terms of presidential coins purchasing power).
 
I think I'm wording this all wrong. I'm not trying to say keeping coins instead of investing is a better choice especially with modern money. The quality of the physical money has gone down, all the modern money I can collect today is just base metal and virtually worthless compared to the gold and silver backed money from 50 years ago if not spent for its current face value. I don't see my collection of presidential dollars I will give my kid ever being worth what my collection of walking liberty half dollars I was given from my Dad simply because what they are made out of. Perhaps I am wrong all together I don't know, thats why I joined a forum in the first place and appreciate being corrected.

EDIT-You know what, I guess it makes since after thinking about it for a little bit without knowing the exact amount of inflation 1$ was worth a lot more justifying it being made out of silver. Nickles and pennies were not 90% silver. I'm sure way back then someone was complaining that gold dollars were made out of silver now. Perhaps in the future base metal will cost too much and we will make coins out of plastic and miss the day they were once metal. They should bring back silver coins but have them priced at what they are worth, a presidential dollar is not worth the amount of silver but they should raise the value on the ASE to reflect current prices if we want to start using silver money again.

Also I definately do not claim to have great money management. This month was actually a good one, I ended positive and didn't have to get rid of anything or sell myself at a truck stop to get by!

 
Yes, 'investing'.

Risk free - well, not exactly.
Guaranteed to increase at 7% - well not exactly.
Can you lose money - well, yes, some do.

Good thing to do with some of your money? Yes, probably so.
Are back up plans a good idea - yes, of course.

Will the stock market or mutual funds make you wealthy - no, probably not, but it will keep you wealthy if you are already there (as long as market confidence level is high).

As far as I am concerned that is the dirty little secret.
Traditional investment vehicles - like stocks and mutual funds, really operate like fiat - faith and trust, or you have nothing.
Huge increase in the value of certain stock, and not a thing was produced, not one additional tangible good produced, not one new R&D idea, nothing tangible, just some media hype, and 'to da moon'.
Now if you are buying into specific hard goods, like a new business, that is where the real risk resides, as most new businesses fail within three years.
Faith and trust, or high risk tangibles.
Traditional investment vehicles are simply an extension of the fiat system.

Will PM make you wealthy, no probably not, just help you sleep better at night.
JMO
 
Credit Crunch said:
At an average return of 7% a year, money doubles every 10 years.

Thus if you had $1 in 1964, today it would be worth $2 (10) $4 (20) $8 (30) $16 (40) $32 (50).

Upshot is, your $1 US dollar would be worth $15 today with its silver content.

You would have been better off (to the tune of 100%), investing that $1 rather than holding on to the silver content.

Not if you are smart. Twice in the period since 1964, silver has seen $45+...The silver content would have been in front. After 20 years your $ investment would have doubled to $4 ie 1984 whereas if I sold my silver at the right time in the 80's, I would have 10 times as much.

Timing is the name of the game when holding for silver content.

With interest rates so low at the moment in the USA, it may well take you 36 years to double your $1 investment. :)

Regards Errol 43
 
errol43 said:
Credit Crunch said:
At an average return of 7% a year, money doubles every 10 years.

Thus if you had $1 in 1964, today it would be worth $2 (10) $4 (20) $8 (30) $16 (40) $32 (50).

Upshot is, your $1 US dollar would be worth $15 today with its silver content.

You would have been better off (to the tune of 100%), investing that $1 rather than holding on to the silver content.

Not if you are smart. Twice in the period since 1964, silver has seen $45+...The silver content would have been in front. After 20 years your $ investment would have doubled to $4 ie 1984 whereas if I sold my silver at the right time in the 80's, I would have 10 times as much.

Timing is the name of the game when holding for silver content.

With interest rates so low at the moment in the USA, it may well take you 36 years to double your $1 investment. :)

Regards Errol 43
When interest rates will rise, won't many people want to sell their silver and buy bonds or pay down their mortgage? If you your mortgage goes to 5-7-10%, and the silver goes nowhere or the value drops, I expect quite a few people to sell their silver. This might be why the price of silver and gold dropped after Reagan became president in 1980, and raised interest rates to 10-15-20%. With the QE expected to generate very high inflation some time in the future, this is certainly something people should be wary.
 
Credit Crunch said:
^ 7% is a long term average of share markets. If people argue "oh you could have sold silver in 1980 and made a killing", then it must also hold true that you could have also invested in a share eg. BHP in the early 90's at $2 and sold in 2008 at $50 a share.

7% is a long term average. Eg. I put some money away on a 5 year term deposit in January 2010 at a rate of 8.25% - interest guaranteed, capital guaranteed.
Where can I find a 5-year time deposit that pays me 8.25%? Here in HK I can only find 2% or so.
 
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