4 charts that illustrate why Australia is up shit creek with debt

SpacePete

Well-Known Member
Silver Stacker
We are turtled. And there's no turning back now.

From the article below: "It's a bleak picture of an economy with only one lever of growth and it feels a lot like the United States before the sub-prime debt problems, which caused the GFC. That is, the RBA policy is implicitly borrowing growth from the future to plug a hole in the present. But in doing so the Australian economy is becoming dangerously overburdened with household debt."

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Things are only going to get worse. From Business Insider:

New Record: The rise and rise of Australian household debt

... RBA rate cuts won't work unless the government and the RBA can rebuild confidence both at consumer and business levels.

But that's not going to stop the RBA from cutting rates again given, since that's the only tool it has in its kit apart from outright sale of Aussie dollars to drive its value down, which the RBA seems unwilling and unlikely to do.

While economic growth may still struggle at a 'below trend rate', the RBA's rate cuts are likely to drive up property prices and with them, the level of household debt in Australia, Eslake says.

Eslake is forecasting a 6-7% growth in dwelling prices, which is "entirely based on leverage."
The debt to income ratio for households will likely continue to rise. This is from an already record high of 152.8% as of September. Indeed on the majority of measures and metrics Australia's household debt level is already high compared to our own history and other developed nations.
To put this level of debt into perspective, last week credit rating agency Standard and Poors warned the government, via the Wall Street Journal, that its AAA rating would be at risk if the level of debt approaches 30% of GDP. Australian household debt is currently above 125% of GDP.

...By year's end, assuming further RBA cuts, this 'overvaluation' will be around 12.5%.

The worrying thing about Eslake's argument is that:

1. RBA rate cuts won't get the economy moving enough to get back to trend
2. RBA rate cuts will add further upward pressure to drive dwelling prices
3. RBA rate cuts will drive household debt higher than already incredibly high levels
4. RBA policy implies a risk to macroeconomic stability

The upshot according to Eslake is that when rates do normalise in the future this "implies some damaging economic consequences if we assume the wealth effect works as prices decline as is being done (by the RBA) as they are rising."

It's a bleak picture of an economy with only one lever of growth and it feels a lot like the United States before the sub-prime debt problems, which caused the GFC.

That is, the RBA policy is implicitly borrowing growth from the future to plug a hole in the present. But in doing so the Australian economy is becoming dangerously overburdened with household debt.

From: http://www.businessinsider.com.au/new-record-the-rise-and-rise-of-australian-household-debt-2015-2
 
$60 of credit card debt and I bought an orange juice today

#yolo

#doingmybitfortheeconomy
 
Steve Keen has been harping on about this for ages and ages.

Seriously attend an auction and note the number of Chinese.

There's about 30 million Chinese wanting to get into the country at the moment. 30 million, just astonishing. And they have money! Government was asking them to put 1 million into "waratah" bonds program and buy a house to qualify. Guess what? They did and have been.

You know which area I live in Sydney and I can tell you this, there are so many Chinese here and none of them speak any English, none. Many drive really nice cars too. Just drive around Burwood and ask locals how the area has changed in the last 5 years.

So I have my doubts. There are just too many of them if the government opens up their quotas.

I am aware that the government is reducing a lot of immigration at the moment. They expand it and contract it depending on the economic environment a lot better over the last few years.

So although I don't disagree that there is a MASSIVE bubble, the question is "how long can it be sustained?", my guess is it will pop but who knows when and people have been saying that for 20years already!!!!
 
Lower rates are coming. A lower AUD is coming.

But at least we can inflate asset prices some more...

RBA rate cuts won't work other than to drive up asset prices

...the RBA efforts will increasingly be less effective and simply drive up asset prices rather than lift the economy.
But as the official interest rate declines to fresh record lows, we argue that the further easing of monetary policy risks being a triumph more of higher asset prices and housing debt than significantly improved activity. We expect that the upside to residential construction contributing to growth is relatively limited. By contrast, the upside to household leverage seems significant. This is in the context of the RBA previously arguing that it is not the level of interest rates that is the impediment to the business sector investing and employing more. Rather it is being restrained by a seemingly crippling lack of confidence.

Eslake says the RBA recognises the lack of traction from interest rate cuts but while this almost guarantees "that rates will have to go lower still in an effort to stimulate activity", any stimulative effect will be minimal. Rather, Eslake says that a lower Aussie dollar will take time to pass through and benefits will go into business's bottom lines, not economic activity.

"The real problem, as the RBA has highlighted, is the lack of confidence and risk appetite in the business sector. And lower rates are unlikely to assist with this," Eslake said.

With the RBA just this month having downgraded its economic outlook and the Government under scrutiny, both for its leadership and economic credentials, the "confidence-enhancing narrative" that the RBA's Governor spoke about last December is lacking.

So lower rates are coming. But they may not work.

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/s...rk-other-than-to-drive-up-asset-prices-2015-2
 
Miloman said:
...So although I don't disagree that there is a MASSIVE bubble, the question is "how long can it be sustained?", my guess is it will pop but who knows when and people have been saying that for 20years already!!!!
We've turned housing into a global investment vehicle. It could go on for quite a while yet with locals having to borrow increasing amounts to even have the slimmest chance of competing with the global money pool.
 
Take note all blue and red supporters...Notice the HH debt as a % of GDP from 1999 to 2015...It just keeps going up while the Politicians keep telling us we are getting richer.

What happens when the savers get 0% on their savings? There is nothing left to stimulate the housing led economy.

Austerity is not the answer... IMO lift the GST to 15%, raise the petrol tax while the price of oil is down, cancel the F35 order and buy off the shelf.

Reduce the immigration numbers by half for the next few years..This might reduce the demand for houses..

Australia should act now(next budget) while we still have a chance to dig ourselves out of a hole.

The HH debt is not government debt so why do government MP's remain silent?\

Regards Errol 43
 
errol43 said:
What happens when the savers get 0% on their savings? There is nothing left to stimulate the housing led economy.
The stock market will boom with punters chasing divs of any size, and we will continue to believe we are rich?

errol43 said:
raise the petrol tax while the price of oil is down,
Bollocks to that.
 
http://www.crikey.com.au/?p=482926

A simple solution to halve the national debt (who likes birthday presents anyway?)

TOM WESTLAND

Since this is the week that we get to see the Intergenerational Report, I am delighted to report to you that I have devised, pro bono, an absolutely pain-free policy reform proposal that will halve the projected national debt burden by 2065.

The scheme is not a complicated one, but no less brilliant for its elegant simplicity (if I do say so myself, and I do). It goes as follows: we simply double the length of the year. New Year's will now come around every 24 months, or about every 730 days. Not only will we save on birthday presents, which we will exchange exactly half as often, it will have the effect of reducing the debt-to-GDP ratio in 2065 from the 100% forecast in the report to a more manageable 50%.

The implications of this are, as I'm sure you would concur, enormous. After all, The Daily Telegraph reported on the weekend that by 2065 "net debt will swallow the economy", since it will be equal to "the entire Australian economy". (This in a front-page article graced with the unimprovable headline "Debt bomb to swallow us all" -- the bomb that digests people before it explodes was I think rejected by Albert R. Broccoli and Harry Saltzman as a premise for a Roger Moore-era Bond plot.)

If you are going to be dead by then, you might still have reason to worry: the report says that federal debt will "represent half the nation's entire economy within two decades unless tough action is taken". The author of the article, Samantha Maiden, for some reason thinks this action will require a departure from "Labor's current budget settings"; as it turns out I have been labouring under a delusion that Her Majesty's Australian Government was largely composed of Liberal and National members.

So how will my year-enhancement scheme reduce debt to 50% of the "entire Australian economy" by 2065? Well, we usually measure the size of the economy in gross domestic product. GDP is the value of all final goods and services produced within the borders of Australia over 365.242 days, a period of time to which some antique sage gave the name of "year". But when we double the length of the year by legislative fiat, GDP will suddenly become the value of all final goods and services produced over the period of 730.484 days, having as an agreeable concomitant that we will be instantly doubling the size of the "entire Australian economy".

Which means when we compare it with a plain old number, like the stock of net debt, the pile of government bonds will look exactly half the size it used to, relatively speaking.

Of course, we haven't reduced the actual amount of debt at all. Computing a debt-to-GDP ratio requires measuring two things: GDP is a number measured over a period of time (we call that a "flow") while debt is just a number (we call that a "stock").

Think of it like the difference between the total amount of food in your fridge and the amount of food you eat each day. A consumption-to-fridge ratio of 100% might be worrying if you're calculating the amount of food you eat every day, but it would be pretty uneventful if consumption were measured over a week, and possibly a cause for alarm if instead you were using your yearly food consumption.

Thus a country's debt-to-GDP ratio, if you really want to know, is the answer to the question, "At this level of debt and with this level of yearly output, how many years would it take for us to repay all of our debt if we devoted all of our economic output to extinguishing it?" A ratio of 15%, which Maiden gives as the current figure, simply means it would take 15% of a year's worth -- or about 55 days' worth -- of national economic output to bring net debt down to zero.

The ratio, while a little complicated in the interpretation, is a good way of comparing debt between countries. It also makes it easy to compare debt levels in the same country over time.

But the actual number doesn't really mean a whole lot, at least by itself. Without more information, there's really no reason to think one way or another that a debt that is bigger or smaller than one year's worth of economic output is either too much debt or not enough. And so, with all due respect to Sam Maiden, there's nothing especially magical about a debt-to-GDP ratio of 50% or 100%: if Australia's net federal debt crosses either of those thresholds, it will be quite literally an artefact of Johannes Kepler's Third Law of Planetary Motion.

Now, where do I collect my knighthood?
 
I'm never in favor of raising taxes. In the US, it's sickening. The government takes our money, cant account for half of it, then dishes the rest out to their friends and political allies. We'd be far better off keeping our money and injecting it straight into the economy.
 
Top chart....How has US HH debt to GDP decreased since 2008 when debt during that period increased 8 trillion? GDP would had to have had huge increases. Pretty sure it has not.
 
ryan71 said:
I'm never in favor of raising taxes. In the US, it's sickening. The government takes our money, cant account for half of it, then dishes the rest out to their friends and political allies. We'd be far better off keeping our money and injecting it straight into the economy.

U shoulda voted for Ron Paul then mate ;)
 
systematic said:
The USA is over 19 TRILLION in debt and somehow Australia's piddly debt is a problem ....

^^^^true...However, the US economy is 30 times that of Australia's economy. :(

Regards Errol 43
 
errol43 said:
systematic said:
The USA is over 19 TRILLION in debt and somehow Australia's piddly debt is a problem ....

^^^^true...However, the US economy is 30 times that of Australia's economy. :(

Regards Errol 43

Plus they can print their way out of trouble while au cant
 
Miloman said:
Steve Keen has been harping on about this for ages and ages.

Seriously attend an auction and note the number of Chinese.

There's about 30 million Chinese wanting to get into the country at the moment. 30 million, just astonishing. And they have money! Government was asking them to put 1 million into "waratah" bonds program and buy a house to qualify. Guess what? They did and have been.

You know which area I live in Sydney and I can tell you this, there are so many Chinese here and none of them speak any English, none. Many drive really nice cars too. Just drive around Burwood and ask locals how the area has changed in the last 5 years.

So I have my doubts. There are just too many of them if the government opens up their quotas.

I am aware that the government is reducing a lot of immigration at the moment. They expand it and contract it depending on the economic environment a lot better over the last few years.

So although I don't disagree that there is a MASSIVE bubble, the question is "how long can it be sustained?", my guess is it will pop but who knows when and people have been saying that for 20years already!!!!
I've been doing small developments around the Burwood/ Box Hill area for the last two decades and have been staggered by the influx of Sino money the last few years. It's is almost impossible to buy a property at the moment at auction without paying well over the odds. Since the AUD has dropped recently the intensity has only been exacerbated. I never thought it would happen but I've been priced out of the market.
 
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