4 Banks and over 220 TRILLION in pure SPECULATION

trader10 said:
wrcmad said:
trader10 said:
4 Banks and over 220 TRILLION in pure SPECULATION




http://i60.tinypic.com/2ebad7c.jpg
Sounds impressive, especially when trying to convince someone ( if not one's self) that there is $220 trillion at risk.
However, the reality is that the amount at risk is only a small fraction of the derivative's book value.
... Though facts like this tend to spoil the permabulls party.


Hi wrcmad,

Can you back up your claim on ..." the reality is that the amount at risk is only a small fraction of the derivative's book value".....


BTW, the $220 Trillion is also only a portion of the total Derivatives Economics..... ;)
Yep, much more easily than you could back up these two wild claims :) :

trader10 said:
systematic said:
And who's assets are they playing with? Theirs? I doubt it .....

mmm yeah... large part( that comes from printing money) are this stupidity called derivatives that allow such a massive leverage without proper policy...... TIME BOMB .......

trader10 said:
There is no doubt that in years/decades ahead, the OZ government will touch our super..... put this way, they use it as the country's assets right now to borrow money from overseas and to guarantee their stable rate and good economic health.....
 
wrcmad,


without proper policy...... TIME BOMB ......

Let's not even mention the "Volcker Rule" developments hey...... lol
Banks had been allowed to continue making big proprietary bets using their own money, despite the lawmakers' intent..... oh well.....

Do a research on what's been going on with the rule and what's happening right now..... that's the policy gigantic hole that the US Congress turned their eyes, backs and conscience off....

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There is no doubt that in years/decades ahead, the OZ government will touch our super..... put this way, they use it as the country's assets right now to borrow money from overseas and to guarantee their stable rate and good economic health.....

Creditors will only lend money to a borrower if they have a "collateral" security.... our case was our superannuation... and always will be in case of another large recession. With over $1.62 trillion, and one of the healthiest pension funds around the world, why wouldn't they?

The old story of the borrowed $100 million a day...... Obviously, the government also have another means to generate that collateral.... say, hard assets for example.......

Superannuation is plain as it comes..... it's compulsory and it's a wonderful treasury box..... and it will never ever be undone again in this country....it's too good to be true....
 
How about the Greek EXIT now? With massive CREDIT DEFAULT SWAPS...excessive use of leverage and exposure to extremely risky assets.....

The Greek banks have exposure to SWISS franc denominated loan mortgages.....
 
and how about the Mr nice guy - Magnus Peterson... jailed for 13 Years


Investors lost around $536 million when Cayman Islands-based Weavering, which was billed as a fund that produced low-risk, stable returns, collapsed in 2009. The fund's entire net worth was found to consist of interest-rate swaps where the counterparty was a company based in the British Virgin Islands controlled by Mr. Peterson himself, according to the SFO.

Among the counts on which Mr. Peterson was found guilty were forging an ISDA agreementa standard agreement used by funds when buying over-the-counter derivativesand faxing through a forward-rate agreement toward the end of the fund's first month of trading that turned a 19% loss into a small profit.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/weavering-hedge-fund-founder-jailed-for-13-years-1422021632
 
Connecting the dots.......


..."Oil's collapse is predicated by one major event: the explosion of the US Dollar carry trade. Worldwide, there is over $9 TRILLION in borrowed US Dollars that has been ploughed into risk assets."...


..."Sadly, what we are experiencing right now is so similar to what we witnessed in 2007 and early 2008. The stock market had been on a great run, people were flipping houses like crazy and most people were convinced that the party would never end."....

..."On Monday, the price of oil hit a brand new five year low. As I write this, U.S. oil is sitting at a price of $53.76 a barrel, which is nearly a 50 percent decline from the peak earlier this year.

There is only one other time in history when the price of oil has declined by more than 50 dollars a barrel in such a short time frame. That was back in the middle of 2008, shortly before the worst stock market crash since the Great Depression."....

...."Business executives in Texas are worried about the drop in oil prices.

On Monday, the Dallas Fed's latest manufacturing survey showed that activity in Texas was slowing down.

The latest composite index came in at 4.1, widely missing expectations and down big from November's reading. Expectations were for the index to come in at 9, down from 10.5 last month.".....

And that's assuming NO increased leverage from derivative usage.


http://etfdailynews.com/2014/12/31/...es-that-could-blow-up-on-the-oil-price-crash/
 
trader10 said:
wrcmad,


without proper policy...... TIME BOMB ......

Let's not even mention the "Volcker Rule" developments hey...... lol
Banks had been allowed to continue making big proprietary bets using their own money, despite the lawmakers' intent..... oh well.....

Do a research on what's been going on with the rule and what's happening right now..... that's the policy gigantic hole that the US Congress turned their eyes, backs and conscience off....

The Volcker Rule (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with the alleged absence of "proper policy."
I'm guessing you just made that one up.


trader10 said:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There is no doubt that in years/decades ahead, the OZ government will touch our super..... put this way, they use it as the country's assets right now to borrow money from overseas and to guarantee their stable rate and good economic health.....

Creditors will only lend money to a borrower if they have a "collateral" security.... our case was our superannuation... and always will be in case of another large recession.
Absolute poppycock.
A sovereign government doesn't need collateral to borrow. :lol:
I'm guessing you just made that one up too.
 
Hi mad,

Good to see you.... I'm still waiting on your claim...

..."However, the reality is that the amount at risk is only a small fraction of the derivative's book value.".....


Now, the Volcker Rule is no anecdote.... obviously you have not been reading about it....


Banks had been allowed to continue making big proprietary bets using their own money, despite the lawmakers' intent

No wonder they are delaying it.... on back of the new Basel III


Democrats Rail Against GOP Bill To Delay Volcker Rule

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/07/democrats-volcker-rule-revision_n_6431146.html

House approves Volcker Rule delay despite Obama veto threat

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-dodd-frank-republicans-volcker-rule-20150114-story.html


Will Banks Use Extra Compliance Time to Kill the Volcker Rule?

http://www.americanbanker.com/news/...-time-to-kill-the-volcker-rule-1072219-1.html


...."High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/380d230c-a33e-11e4-9c06-00144feab7de.html#ixzz3PvC74fEF

Executives making the case point to banks withdrawing from markets and a sharp decrease in bond inventories. They say new rules including Basel III capital requirements and the Volcker rule prohibiting proprietary trading have forced them to shrink their balance sheets."...

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/380d230c-a33e-11e4-9c06-00144feab7de.html#axzz3Pq97G8LK

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


..."Absolute poppycock.
A sovereign government doesn't need collateral to borrow. lol
I'm guessing you just made that one up too.".....

Hang on big shot..... who said Australia is a Sovereign Nation on the first place? Can you back that one up as well? As far as I concern we are NOT......
 
The Volcker Rule (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with the alleged absence of "proper policy."


Dear WRCMAD,

Are you for real ? :lol:


....."Goldman Sachs has been on a shopping spree with its own money, snapping up apartments in Spain, a mall in Utah and a European ink company, all of which the bank hopes eventually to sell for a profit.

These are the sorts of investments that many, including some of the bank's regulators, had assumed would be prohibited by one of the signature elements of the 2010 financial overhaul legislation, the Volcker Rule.

Yet while its competitors have been abandoning the business of making big bets with their own money, frequently citing the risks involved, Goldman has been quietly coming up with several new ways to put its own money to work in formats that appear to stay on the right side of Volcker.

The investments have caused disquiet among some of Goldman's big clients, who complain privately that the bank is supposed to help its clients buy companies and other assets but instead ends up competing for those assets.

Goldman's merchant banking operations already came under scrutiny at a Senate hearing in November that examined Wall Street's direct holdings of commodities and commodities infrastructure, like coal mines and aluminum warehouses."......


http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2015/01/21/goldman-investments-are-testing-volcker-rule/?_r=1
 
trader10 said:
Hi mad,

Good to see you.... I'm still waiting on your claim...

..."However, the reality is that the amount at risk is only a small fraction of the derivative's book value.".....
OTC derivatives notional amounts outstanding totalled $693 trillion at end-June 2013...
Gross credit exposures gross market values after legally enforceable bilateral netting but before
collateral ... jumped [at] end-June 2013 to $3.9 trillion.
Source: www.bis.org/publ/otc_hy1311.pdf
By my calcs, that is around 0.56% of notional value exposure. ;)
Obviously, you have never traded derivatives.

trader10 said:
Now, the Volcker Rule is no anecdote.... obviously you have not been reading about it....


Banks had been allowed to continue making big proprietary bets using their own money, despite the lawmakers' intent

No wonder they are delaying it.... on back of the new Basel III
Intent is meaningless.
Doesn't matter whether you agree or not with Volcker Rule or Basel III, the regulation still exists.
The assumption that this policy is not "proper" is merely your opinion.
All rules are made to play to your advantage.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


..."Absolute poppycock.
A sovereign government doesn't need collateral to borrow. lol
I'm guessing you just made that one up too.".....

Hang on big shot..... who said Australia is a Sovereign Nation on the first place? Can you back that one up as well? As far as I concern we are NOT......
Fair enough.
You can play on semantics.... but that doesn't change the fact that you made it up. :)
 
OTC derivatives notional amounts outstanding totalled $693 trillion at end-June 2013...
Gross credit exposures gross market values after legally enforceable bilateral netting but before
collateral ... jumped [at] end-June 2013 to $3.9 trillion.
Source: www.bis.org/publ/otc_hy1311.pdf


By my calcs, that is around 0.56% of notional value exposure. wink
Obviously, you have never traded derivatives.

Well mad,

First of all, do you really believe on the FPD and PDS that this 4 large banks gives as an explanation via the OCC ?

Here it's the 2014's "explanation" on the behalf of these commercial banks:

..."Credit risk is a significant risk in bank derivatives trading activities. The notional amount of a derivative contract is a reference amount that
determines contractual payments, but it is generally not an amount at risk. The credit risk in a derivative contract is a function of a number
of variables, such as whether counterparties exchange notional principal, the volatility of the underlying market factors (interest rate,
currency, commodity, equity or corporate reference entity), the maturity and liquidity of the contract, and the creditworthiness of the
counterparty.

Credit risk in derivatives differs from credit risk in loans due to the more uncertain nature of the potential credit exposure. With a funded
loan, the amount at risk is the amount advanced to the borrower. The credit risk is unilateral; the bank faces the credit exposure of the
borrower. However, in most derivatives transactions, such as swaps (which make up the bulk of bank derivative contracts), the credit
exposure is bilateral. Each party to the contract may (and, if the contract has a long enough tenor, probably will) have a current credit
exposure to the other party at various points in time over the contract's life. Moreover, because the credit exposure is a function of
movements in market factors, banks do not know, and can only estimate, how much the value of the derivative contract might be at various
points of time in the future.


Measuring credit exposure in derivative contracts involves identifying those contracts where a bank would lose value if the counterparty to a
contract defaulted today
. The total of all contracts with positive value (i.e., derivatives receivables) to the bank is the gross positive fair
value (GPFV) and represents an initial measurement of credit exposure. The total of all contracts with negative value (i.e., derivatives
payables) to the bank is the gross negative fair value (GNFV) and represents a measurement of the exposure the bank poses to its
counterparties."....


lol There are 10 pages of excuses and explanations on how market risk, credit risk and bilateral netting set are all aligned and working towards a transparent and trouble free trading between the counterparties....
Have you read it? and, do you really believe in it?

GPFV from interest rate contracts has fallen from $5.1 trillion at the end of 2008 to $2.6 trillion currently...as per Q2 2014.

Put that in context.... the budget for total expenditure of the United States Government during 2014 was around $3.5 trillion.... I think anyone would like to see Q4 2014 books from OCC....unfortunately it does not get published until feb-mar 2015......

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Fair enough.
You can play on semantics....

Well, we cannot possibly be a sovereign nation..... not because of England...no..... but, because USA.

One quick example is the Pine Gap .... Pine Gap, whose initial purpose was to gather intelligence concerning the performance of Soviet missiles, now provides information, virtually in real time, that can be used by a variety of US weapons systems, including drones. Pine Gap is part of America's drone killing program. If targets are selected anywhere in east Asia or the western Pacific, we are complicit in such actions. Pine Gap information is now used to help target and to perfect America's anti-ballistic missile system. China has 250 nuclear warheads, America has 7700. China, committed to a no-first-use policy from the start, may be concerned about the adequacy of its present programs, because the ABM system being put in place by America and Japan will seriously limit China's deterrent nuclear force. Pine Gap is integral in such developments. In any conflict in the western Pacific, because of the the Darwin taskforce and Pine Gap, it would be impossible to say that we are not involved. Therefore, if America goes to war in the western Pacific, we also will be at war.

It's a fair and plausible argument.....
 
trader10 said:
Well mad,

First of all, do you really believe on the FPD and PDS that this 4 large banks gives as an explanation via the OCC ?
.....
lol There are 10 pages of excuses and explanations on how market risk, credit risk and bilateral netting set are all aligned and working towards a transparent and trouble free trading between the counterparties....
Have you read it? and, do you really believe in it?
....
If we are talking about what you "believe", then I was right, your quoted figure was purely sensationalism.
No need for a Pirocco-style Wikipedia-101-type lecture, I know how it works.
What you have failed to recognise is that most derivative positions held by these institutions are held for the purpose of mitigating or offsetting risk, not taking on more risk.

trader10 said:
....
Moreover, because the credit exposure is a function of movements in market factors, banks do not know, and can only estimate, how much the value of the derivative contract might be at various
points of time in the future.

....
No shyte? :P
Well, that is good, because that would put most manipulation theories to bed. :)

trader10 said:
wrcmad said:
Fair enough.
You can play on semantics....

Well, we cannot possibly be a sovereign nation..... not because of England...no..... but, because USA.
......
Don't really care whether we are sovereign or not.... that is not the point.
Point is, our Govt doesn't need collateral to borrow.... you made it up.
 
If we are talking about what you "believe", then I was right, your quoted figure was purely sensationalism.
No need for a Pirocco-style Wikipedia-101-type lecture, I know how it works.
What you have failed to recognise is that most derivative positions held by these institutions are held for the purpose of mitigating or offsetting risk, not taking on more risk.

No Mad, you are not right at all......people that believe on investment tools that even themselves(the financial world, are having troubles in understanding and trying to put a proper policy in place), are people that only jump on the bandwagon and having no fully knowledge are the most easily taken on a ride and having troubles when the shit hits the fan.... no wonder so many fin instos, investors and small fries lose so much trying to "BET" on some of these financial tools....

It's not me making it up matey.... there are literally thousands and thousands of REAL stories out there.... and the US Congress has been dealing with this subject for years now... and lobbying parties(major banks) are trying everything to stop the changes.....

Lenders are Lobbying Against the Volcker Rule

http://www.businessweek.com/videos/2012-02-14/lenders-are-lobbying-against-the-volcker-rule

Bank Lobby's Onslaught Shifts Debate on Volcker Rule

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-26/bank-lobby-s-onslaught-shifts-debate-on-volcker-rule.html

So, it's not you that will be the one telling otherwise right now..... :lol: The rules on these financial tools are clear as a mud and that's why regulators, policy makers and fair economics are coming into war with the banks and fin instos that are capitalizing on their own rules..... you are not the big shot as you think mate... be more simple that will earn you more..... :)


Don't really care whether we are sovereign or not.... that is not the point.
Point is, our Govt doesn't need collateral to borrow.... you made it up.

Well, why don't you bring some evidence to your hot shot talk then?

Every Fin Insto, member of RITS or the Government Itself must give as "GUARANTEE" something before borrowing large amounts of money due to economic distress......
We are no different..... we issue bonds like many others but paper is paper..... what OVERSEAS CREDITORS wants is not the paper that will be exchange for useless currency... They want a guarantee.... Pension funds, our SUPERANNUATION is the largest and best guarantee that this country can get.
Seating at over $1.6 trillion Australian dollars, it makes a hell of difference.....

If we had zilt - 0 in pension funds, the story in borrowing $100 million a day would be a hell of different story boy... trust me..... Governments are nothing but a legislation tool to control the public's economics.... bankers absolutely love it.... and so corporations.....

Last GFC, we almost lost 2-3 banks..... on the next recession that is approaching, we might lose the same number again but, who will bail them out this time??? we are not in SURPLUS now..... we will need the public money to help out ? Imagine in a case of real hardship recession? part of your money will be frozen in your nearest and dearest bank......and for what? for the best interest of the country ? lol sure :lol:

Yes, Govt does need to have guarantees to borrow money.... oh yes boy.....

No... you've got no point... try it again
 
wrcmad said:
trader10 said:
4 Banks and over 220 TRILLION in pure SPECULATION

http://i60.tinypic.com/2ebad7c.jpg
Sounds impressive, especially when trying to convince someone ( if not one's self) that there is $220 trillion at risk.
However, the reality is that the amount at risk is only a small fraction of the derivative's book value.
... Though facts like this tend to spoil the permabulls party.
I stand by my statement, and have shown it to be true above.
But, don't let the truth get in the way of a good story....


trader10 said:
Well, why don't you bring some evidence to your hot shot talk then?
...
Yes, Govt does need to have guarantees to borrow money.... oh yes boy.....
Oh, no boy... :P
Your attempt at reverse onus says a lot.
Didn't think you could substantiate your claim....
The Australian Government doesn't need collateral to borrow. In fact, Australian government bonds can themselves be used as collateral. ;)
The only restriction a government has on it's ability to borrow is that it doesn't turtle-up its public finances so badly that creditors begin to demand higher interest rates. Or even worse, turn their back altogether.

I'm no hot shot.
You're the one peppering the forum with anti-insto/govt posts. It would seem you are full of hot-shot talk.
I just don't like reading misleading BS.
 
The Australian Government doesn't need collateral to borrow. In fact, Australian government bonds can themselves be used as collateral. ;)


Not for all all circumstances.... sometimes bonds alone will just not cut within the deal.....the creditors often will ask for other "guarantees".... unless off course, in a extreme event, the government decides to exchange all our superannuation investments for useless BONDS they will print..... lol that will be the day...... we are not the US but we do like to think we are at the same level for some reason.... we are a tiny little economy.... amazingly small..... it does not take much to break 2 of the 4 big banks.... if we can say big banks.....

take care mad ;)
 
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