steve.rsa said:
time will tell on the true value of some of these "varieties" personally I think sometimes these things can be as they say" flash in the pan" when it comes to value down the line
1993 10y silver panda frosted version
- Thread starter silverstar1
- Start date
time will tell on the true value of some of these "varieties" personally I think sometimes these things can be as they say" flash in the pan" when it comes to value down the line
Robust discussion happening here. I am with jc88888888.. on this one. To me this is part of the 'art, science and craft' of coin collecting. I speak to my Dad who collects stamps and banknotes and this nuances are what make collecting fun and challenging for him. I have only been a Panda collector for 6 months but am slowly getting a sense of the complexity and of the Panda coins family. It is like finding a long lost cousin and adds to the mystery of it all. There is always more to know. Gives more topics for Peter to write on in the pricepaedia
To me there is enough difference visually in the frosted/normal 1993 varieties to have separate labeling. It is not a big issue for me but I can see why the NGC have done this. Maybe they have jumped the gun to early and need to do more research into the origin of these differences like the 2003 mirror / satin.
To me there is enough difference visually in the frosted/normal 1993 varieties to have separate labeling. It is not a big issue for me but I can see why the NGC have done this. Maybe they have jumped the gun to early and need to do more research into the origin of these differences like the 2003 mirror / satin.
Nice discusion here. Im too think two or three (1995) varieties is ok. But in a colleccionist and a investment man with conservative think. And if i pay a lot for a mirrored 2000 is because i want the coin to my collection but i think is more easy gain more % in less expensive coins than in expensives ones. I think the most important thing is enjoy the coins (collectionism) and if raise is price better. If not better to buy more more cheap. Im for the long run and i think i will give my collection to my daughters when i became old.
silverstar1
New Member
First I want to thanks everyone who has weighed in on this i was initially just curious about this. Having looked carefully at many of the ms69 early 90s dates I would have to conclude that there is some other differences than just a worn die so I would think they are worthy of a variety designation, if it is truly just a worn die i would agree that it wouldnt be a different variety. Personally I think the variety thing is very interesting and for those that do not find it interesting dont worry about it you are free to collect what you want . I think one of the fascinating thing about the early pandas is the certain mystery that surrounds them. I guess the only real way to know the history would be to open the records if they exist of the chinese mints that minted them , I imagine some of them are are similar to what happened with the singapore medal where a die cracked or was damaged and was replaced by one that was almost exact but not quite , and at the time they were probably not really thinking about what future collectors would think since they were a dime a dozen back then anyway. Maybe Peter would have some insight to whether the chinese mints kept records and if they are available for some of these older coins for me that is the kind of things that would be very interesting , I am sure some would be bored to death from it but to each their own...
Pandacollector
Active Member
silverstar1 said:
That's a story for another day.
Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com
silverstar1
New Member
thanks Peter I would love to hear more about it! Looking forward to a new book as well!
That kind of history of the china mint would be facinating , +1 on the new book!
Pandacollector
Active Member
25Grizzlies said:
I remain fascinated by varieties. When my colleague Huang Rui Yong and I get together we spend half our time talking about varieties. He is extraordinarily knowledgeable about these, and I can hardly wait for his next book on Pandas to come out. It should have all sorts of treats and new information in it for all of us. One fun memory is seeing him in Beijing, and the first thing out of his mouth, after "Hi," was, "Do you think such-and-such coin is scarce?" To which I replied, "Yes, and do you know that there are two varieties; one is missing a leaf." That kept us going for 20 minutes.
Our shared belief, though, has been that a new variety must have some kind of design variation, or difference. Frosting only counts if it is completely absent because that makes it a different design, as in the 2000 mirror coins. If varying degrees of frosting now distinguish varieties it seems like the rules of the game have changed. Which they can, but I feel like there ought to be some discussion and consensus on doing that, which hasn't happened yet as far as I know.
I want to keep an open mind so everyone's thoughts on this are greatly appreciated.
Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com
silverstar1
New Member
Thanks Peter it is a real pleasure to have your insight here ! You make a good point on the varieties , I wonder if there is some software that could scan and overlay coins to compare because like i said there is a few varieties that seem like a different die and frost /non frost varieties but are also very close, have you heard of anything like that?
oh and is your friend going to have an english version of the book?
oh and is your friend going to have an english version of the book?
Wow this is a very interesting discussion going on here with many "heavy hitters" in MCC knowledge weighing in with excellent insight and opinions. All of the SS members have really conveyed brilliant view points !!!
Before I get into the view from my perspective on varieties let's all look at what the definition of "collectible" is as that is what we are all doing here, we are amassing a collection of Modern Chinese Coins from a variety of metal composition, dates, mints, etc. Varieties are an extremely interesting part of that collection and in my opinion varieties are also important to serious collectors, appearing in many types of items that people collect.
collectible also collectable
1. That can be collected
2. Worthy of being collected
A collectable or collectible (aka collector's item) is any object regarded as being of value or interest to a collector
[1] not necessarily monetarily valuable or antique
[2] There are numerous types of collectables and terms to denote those types. An antique is a collectable that is old. A curio is a small, usually fascinating or unusual item sought after by collectors.
[3] A "manufactured" collectable is an item made specifically for people to collect
I agree with Peter and I am very fascinated by varieties. Whether it be "large date", "small date", "frosted", "mirrored", etc. I am very intrigued by varieties and compelled to collect them all.
Of course the reasoning behind some varieties is easily apparent such as date sizes we all know that the majority of those date variations are attributed to the fact that the coins where minted at different Chinese mints such as "large date" may have been the Shanghai mint whereas "small date" possibly the Shenyang mint or the "frosted bamboo" at the Shenzhen Guobao mint while the "mirrored bamboo" at the Shenyang mint. These types of variations are more easily explainable as the coins in question where obviously minted in completely separate locations at completely different mints.
Now when the attention is focused on a coin such as the one in this discussion the S10Y 1993 "frosted" variety I'm not so easily convinced it can be written off so quickly (as some have done) as simply "worn dies". I'm not saying that this "die wear" hypothesis is completely without merit but when you look at these coins side by side you see one that is heavily frosted and one that is completely devoid of any frosting whatsoever. I have yet to see any of these 1993 pandas with varying degrees of frosting, not to say that they do not exist but I have not seen any. In my opinion this variance (frosted/non frosted) was done intentionally. How will we ever know for sure? Will the Chinese mint produce this information? I don't think so because they do not have it. The mint barely recorded actual mintage numbers accurately so logically the Chinese mint has even less information on varieties. If this is the case then we can only rely on the information we have attained through personal experience and that of those who know much more than us.
If we (collectors) were to rely solely on information from the Chinese mints, we would know much less than is currently known as it has already been established that the Chinese mint(s) reporting/record keeping of mintage and varieties has been less than stellar, almost nonexistent. If not for knowledgeable and studious authors/researchers such as Peter Anthony, Shen Jiaju, Ge Zukang, Ron Guth, Nick Brown and several others, we as collectors of Modern Chinese Coins would know very little to nothing.
According to The General Manager (in 1988) of China Gold Limited "Shen Jiaju" in his commentary in the book "Modern Chinese Commemorative Gold & Silver Coins and Medals-Volume #One 1979 to 1988, it was not until the 1970's that the issuance of Chinese coins made use of various techniques such as frosted designs on mirrored fields to strike bullion and commemorative coins on materials such as silver, gold and platinum. In considering that the 1993 frosted pandas were minted within 20 years of when frosting was initially used in minting MCC, it is not outside of the realm of possibilities that the Chinese mint was still in an experimental phase and possibly purposely minted a predetermined amount of these S10Y 1993's in a frosted and non-frosted finish. As we all know with MCC anything is possible, I wouldn't rule anything out. This was likely done on many other MCC and surely not pandas alone.
It's only my opinion but the assertion that NGC revels in and promotes varieties for profit doesn't hold much weight as in the case of pandas for example I could not find any silver pandas that actually have a variety attribution fee associated with them. Here is the NGC link and it reveals that none of these varieties (including the 1993 variety) have any charges associated with their attribution.
http://www.ngccoin.com/VPSubCategor...hina&cointype=silver-pandas-andcommemoratives
There are no gold pandas as well that have any fee associated with their variety attribution
http://www.ngccoin.com/VPSubCategor...china&cointype=gold-pandas-and-commemoratives
If NGC was attempting to profit an additional $12 per coin here are 150 various pandas in the two links above that they could be charging attribution fees on but they are not doing this so I really don't see NGC support/promotion of varieties as a profiteering escapade. Why can't it be as simple as NGC is just as interested in the mysterious discoveries in MCC that continue to develop and are there to listen to and support their clients the collectors?
Modern Chinese Coins have only been minted/created during the last thirty years an infinitesimal blip in time when compared to other world coins that have been around for 100's or 1000's of years but amazingly so little is known about them. A highly knowledgeable collector/investor of MCC once said this at a coin expo in Hong Kong "A few years back, all too many people regarded all modern Chinese coinage as little better than Franklin Mint medals. Many Chinese coins were melted for their bullion content (some still are!). Now just about every person who admits that they melted these coins regrets it, as coins that used to number in the thousands are now nearly as rare as carrier pigeons" This above statement along with the known fact that the planned mintages of many coins from 1979 to 2009 was nowhere near the actual mintages sets the stage for many MCC's to possibly be very elusive in the next twenty years. Even those thought to be common today.
So I am collecting/recognizing any variety that is discovered. Who knows truly and conclusively what is still left to be discovered and exactly its rarity?
Basically it all boils down to the fact that it is your choice to either recognize/collect varieties or not. I have friends who say there are too many varieties so they only collect one coin of each year while others (such as me) are fascinated by all varieties and attempt to collect them all.
Collect what fascinates you and enjoy your collection
"Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts"
Ok so I put my son to sleep then poured myself a glass of wine and finished my third glass upon finishing this post I know it randomly went off topic but hopefully there is some logic in there somewhere !
Before I get into the view from my perspective on varieties let's all look at what the definition of "collectible" is as that is what we are all doing here, we are amassing a collection of Modern Chinese Coins from a variety of metal composition, dates, mints, etc. Varieties are an extremely interesting part of that collection and in my opinion varieties are also important to serious collectors, appearing in many types of items that people collect.
collectible also collectable
1. That can be collected
2. Worthy of being collected
A collectable or collectible (aka collector's item) is any object regarded as being of value or interest to a collector
[1] not necessarily monetarily valuable or antique
[2] There are numerous types of collectables and terms to denote those types. An antique is a collectable that is old. A curio is a small, usually fascinating or unusual item sought after by collectors.
[3] A "manufactured" collectable is an item made specifically for people to collect
I agree with Peter and I am very fascinated by varieties. Whether it be "large date", "small date", "frosted", "mirrored", etc. I am very intrigued by varieties and compelled to collect them all.
Of course the reasoning behind some varieties is easily apparent such as date sizes we all know that the majority of those date variations are attributed to the fact that the coins where minted at different Chinese mints such as "large date" may have been the Shanghai mint whereas "small date" possibly the Shenyang mint or the "frosted bamboo" at the Shenzhen Guobao mint while the "mirrored bamboo" at the Shenyang mint. These types of variations are more easily explainable as the coins in question where obviously minted in completely separate locations at completely different mints.
Now when the attention is focused on a coin such as the one in this discussion the S10Y 1993 "frosted" variety I'm not so easily convinced it can be written off so quickly (as some have done) as simply "worn dies". I'm not saying that this "die wear" hypothesis is completely without merit but when you look at these coins side by side you see one that is heavily frosted and one that is completely devoid of any frosting whatsoever. I have yet to see any of these 1993 pandas with varying degrees of frosting, not to say that they do not exist but I have not seen any. In my opinion this variance (frosted/non frosted) was done intentionally. How will we ever know for sure? Will the Chinese mint produce this information? I don't think so because they do not have it. The mint barely recorded actual mintage numbers accurately so logically the Chinese mint has even less information on varieties. If this is the case then we can only rely on the information we have attained through personal experience and that of those who know much more than us.
If we (collectors) were to rely solely on information from the Chinese mints, we would know much less than is currently known as it has already been established that the Chinese mint(s) reporting/record keeping of mintage and varieties has been less than stellar, almost nonexistent. If not for knowledgeable and studious authors/researchers such as Peter Anthony, Shen Jiaju, Ge Zukang, Ron Guth, Nick Brown and several others, we as collectors of Modern Chinese Coins would know very little to nothing.
According to The General Manager (in 1988) of China Gold Limited "Shen Jiaju" in his commentary in the book "Modern Chinese Commemorative Gold & Silver Coins and Medals-Volume #One 1979 to 1988, it was not until the 1970's that the issuance of Chinese coins made use of various techniques such as frosted designs on mirrored fields to strike bullion and commemorative coins on materials such as silver, gold and platinum. In considering that the 1993 frosted pandas were minted within 20 years of when frosting was initially used in minting MCC, it is not outside of the realm of possibilities that the Chinese mint was still in an experimental phase and possibly purposely minted a predetermined amount of these S10Y 1993's in a frosted and non-frosted finish. As we all know with MCC anything is possible, I wouldn't rule anything out. This was likely done on many other MCC and surely not pandas alone.
It's only my opinion but the assertion that NGC revels in and promotes varieties for profit doesn't hold much weight as in the case of pandas for example I could not find any silver pandas that actually have a variety attribution fee associated with them. Here is the NGC link and it reveals that none of these varieties (including the 1993 variety) have any charges associated with their attribution.
http://www.ngccoin.com/VPSubCategor...hina&cointype=silver-pandas-andcommemoratives
There are no gold pandas as well that have any fee associated with their variety attribution
http://www.ngccoin.com/VPSubCategor...china&cointype=gold-pandas-and-commemoratives
If NGC was attempting to profit an additional $12 per coin here are 150 various pandas in the two links above that they could be charging attribution fees on but they are not doing this so I really don't see NGC support/promotion of varieties as a profiteering escapade. Why can't it be as simple as NGC is just as interested in the mysterious discoveries in MCC that continue to develop and are there to listen to and support their clients the collectors?
Modern Chinese Coins have only been minted/created during the last thirty years an infinitesimal blip in time when compared to other world coins that have been around for 100's or 1000's of years but amazingly so little is known about them. A highly knowledgeable collector/investor of MCC once said this at a coin expo in Hong Kong "A few years back, all too many people regarded all modern Chinese coinage as little better than Franklin Mint medals. Many Chinese coins were melted for their bullion content (some still are!). Now just about every person who admits that they melted these coins regrets it, as coins that used to number in the thousands are now nearly as rare as carrier pigeons" This above statement along with the known fact that the planned mintages of many coins from 1979 to 2009 was nowhere near the actual mintages sets the stage for many MCC's to possibly be very elusive in the next twenty years. Even those thought to be common today.
So I am collecting/recognizing any variety that is discovered. Who knows truly and conclusively what is still left to be discovered and exactly its rarity?
Basically it all boils down to the fact that it is your choice to either recognize/collect varieties or not. I have friends who say there are too many varieties so they only collect one coin of each year while others (such as me) are fascinated by all varieties and attempt to collect them all.
Collect what fascinates you and enjoy your collection
"Not everything that counts can be counted and not everything that can be counted counts"
Ok so I put my son to sleep then poured myself a glass of wine and finished my third glass upon finishing this post I know it randomly went off topic but hopefully there is some logic in there somewhere !
Thanks comeaux. I read it after my third cup of red wine (malbec) too. I need to read twice.
;-)
Good points and very nice discussion here.
I like a lot more here than ccf because the people say they opinions and are open to discuss and ear and not to make fightings. And all the regular forum members try to help the others.
;-)
Good points and very nice discussion here.
I like a lot more here than ccf because the people say they opinions and are open to discuss and ear and not to make fightings. And all the regular forum members try to help the others.
Thor122 said:
Yea I love CCF and those guys are awesome especially badon, Peter, poconopenn & PH but sometimes there are just to many "know it alls" in a hobby that is still shrouded in mystery and actually the experts do not even know much about. I'm still but a zygote in the developmental stages of MCC knowledge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gASY7Lj5GPQ
When I can snatch the panda from Master Kan's hand I will also be master in MCC
25Grizzlies
Member
Ah the great mystery of MCC's!
Great post Comeaux!! You have a good way of relaying your points clearly, we are blessed to have so many fantastic people who contribute here!
I haven't written off frosting as a variety yet, like Peter says there needs to be a discussion by all the knowledgeable heads... I am with you... the coin in question, the '93, who's to say the mint didn't experiment with frosting/unfrosted this year? It's premature to leap and say definitely no at this stage.
If in the future it's decided that yes we are going to consider frosting a variety, I wonder also if there are differences among the gold coin issues of 1993?
Great post Comeaux!! You have a good way of relaying your points clearly, we are blessed to have so many fantastic people who contribute here!
I haven't written off frosting as a variety yet, like Peter says there needs to be a discussion by all the knowledgeable heads... I am with you... the coin in question, the '93, who's to say the mint didn't experiment with frosting/unfrosted this year? It's premature to leap and say definitely no at this stage.
If in the future it's decided that yes we are going to consider frosting a variety, I wonder also if there are differences among the gold coin issues of 1993?
Pandacollector
Active Member
25Grizzlies said:
You bet, and for other years, too. That's why this isn't a trivial issue.
Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com
Reggie Perrin
New Member
Amazing thread.. I've learnt a lot from these past few pages, as there are quite a few topics being explored in this chain of posts 
I've gone back a few posts to quote PA's definition of what constitutes a variety (I've highlighted in bold what seems to be the key bit).
And as far as I understand it frosting is produced by carrying out one of the following processes on the die (source:- Google search):-
1. Sand blasting (and I can't even begin to contemplate how they do this to something as small as a 1/20th gold coin die)
2. Acid
3. Laser (although this is unlikely for a 1993 coin)
So if I've got this right; if the difference in the 'frosting' between two coins is the result of an 'error' in the preparation or maintenance of the die then this is probably a legitimate variety. If on the other hand the differences are a result of normal wear-and-tear then it's not a new variety.
I'm assuming wear-and-tear will produce a gradual change in frosting over the production of 1000's of coins, where as a preparation or maintenance error will produce no intermediate coins, there is a sudden 'jump' from frosted to regular coins, or vice versa.
Effectively this is a missing link question.. i.e. are there any coins out there that link the transition from regular to frosted 1993 coins? If not we have a legit variety (probably ), if there are then we don't have a new variety.
oh, and the mints themselves are no help what-so-ever in answering this question...
[with regards to the impact on new collectors of all these new varieties; we'll soon get the hang of it ]
[edit:- After thought now the Bailey's and ice has kicked in... Does this new variety mean that any silver 1993 coins that NGC grade from now on have to be attributed with either 'Frosted' or 'Regular', in the same way that there are 'only' small and large dates? or is there a 'dunno?' variety? If there's a 'dunno?' grade then maybe this proves this isn't a legit variety??]
I've gone back a few posts to quote PA's definition of what constitutes a variety (I've highlighted in bold what seems to be the key bit).
Pandacollector said:
And as far as I understand it frosting is produced by carrying out one of the following processes on the die (source:- Google search):-
1. Sand blasting (and I can't even begin to contemplate how they do this to something as small as a 1/20th gold coin die)
2. Acid
3. Laser (although this is unlikely for a 1993 coin)
So if I've got this right; if the difference in the 'frosting' between two coins is the result of an 'error' in the preparation or maintenance of the die then this is probably a legitimate variety. If on the other hand the differences are a result of normal wear-and-tear then it's not a new variety.
I'm assuming wear-and-tear will produce a gradual change in frosting over the production of 1000's of coins, where as a preparation or maintenance error will produce no intermediate coins, there is a sudden 'jump' from frosted to regular coins, or vice versa.
Effectively this is a missing link question.. i.e. are there any coins out there that link the transition from regular to frosted 1993 coins? If not we have a legit variety (probably
), if there are then we don't have a new variety.oh, and the mints themselves are no help what-so-ever in answering this question...
[with regards to the impact on new collectors of all these new varieties; we'll soon get the hang of it
][edit:- After thought now the Bailey's and ice has kicked in... Does this new variety mean that any silver 1993 coins that NGC grade from now on have to be attributed with either 'Frosted' or 'Regular', in the same way that there are 'only' small and large dates? or is there a 'dunno?' variety? If there's a 'dunno?' grade then maybe this proves this isn't a legit variety??]
Reggie Perrin
New Member
.. double post
comeaux said:
Jaja i like a lot kung fu (david carradine tv series). And i can snatch the panda from master kan's hand because im black belt in karate for more than 15 years (2nd dan). But i think is more dificult know how many varieties are in mcc than have a black belt in martial arts.
;-)