1993 10y silver panda frosted version

Guys just to clear up a mistake I may have conveyed

Ok so for the S10Y 1993 Large Date it is only my opinion that the "regular" is more elusive as from what I see and have seen available, there appears to be more of the "frosty" variety as those two I have in the pictures I posted.

For the S10Y 1993 Small Date it is only my opinion that the "frosty" is more elusive as from what I see and have seen available, there appears to be more of the "regular" variety as the one I have in the pictures I posted.

As stated these are only personal opinions/observations and Mr. Peter Anthony/yennus would obviously know and have more information than the "Cajun Panda" :D
 
Reggie Perrin said:
Given the frosted and non-frosted look so different, how could your 3 coins all be graded MS69? Either the coin in the middle is 'defective', or the two coins on the outside are 'defective', given they were graded before the variety was recognised.
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Reggie Perrin said:
The differences between a frosted and regular 1993 coin (small date or large date) are quite big. So before recognising the two varieties were NGC downgrading frosted coins because they looked over frosted, or possibly downgrading regular coins because they lacked frosting? So are there a bunch of coins out there, either frosted or regular, which are graded lower than they should because NGC didn't recognise the variety at the time?

or is frostyness not considered when coins are graded? [made up word... :) ]

In case I misunderstand grading; it's all about the quality of the coin, not whether it's a small/large date, or a rare/common coin
In case I misunderstand this variety: The 1993 Large date comes in regular and frosted flavours, & the 1993 small date also has frosted and regular varieties
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Hi Reggie,

Grading is about the measure of wear or damage done to the coin surface as opposed to the original state of the coin as minted.

Degree of frostiness doesn't (and should not) affect how a coin to be graded. According to an article written by Mr. Ge, it is said that every time a die is reworked, it increase the degree of frostiness. In other words, the early die state is less frosty than the later die state.

In this case, I don't know if it is a design change, as in frosty and non-frosty, or it it a change due to rework done to the die.
 
silverstar1 said:
the first 93 i had graded was a non frost lg date and came back a ms65 which i was shocked because it did not have any visable scratches , spots or blemishes, but when I got a ms 69 lg date frost variety I thought it must be a bad strike why they graded it so low since the frosted one looked better to me.
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Can't comment without knowing your lighting setup and magnification level used to inspect your coin.

Many minute flaws are revealed only under strong bright lighting.

I don't believe bad strike is the reason your coin receive ms65.
 
low said:
silverstar1 said:
the first 93 i had graded was a non frost lg date and came back a ms65 which i was shocked because it did not have any visable scratches , spots or blemishes, but when I got a ms 69 lg date frost variety I thought it must be a bad strike why they graded it so low since the frosted one looked better to me.
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Can't comment without knowing your lighting setup and magnification level used to inspect your coin.

Many minute flaws are revealed only under strong bright lighting.

I don't believe bad strike is the reason your coin receive ms65.
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Yeah I dont know , there is some small rubs on the rim but I would have thought it should be at least a 67. It was the first batch of pandas I sent in , I just bought a bunch of random pandas on ebay and wanted to get them graded so i knew what I was dealing with and could compare others I would buy, I ended up with quite a few 68s and 69s and this 65 and a 1995 ms70 ! so I wasnt going to complain too much . I have not got a 65 or a 70 since so who knows....
 
25Grizzlies said:
Wow that's interesting, I always thought the large date to be the rarer!

Thanks Comeaux!
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Here is one definition of a variety (from About.com): A die variety is any variation in the normal design of a given coin, usually caused by errors in the preparation or maintenance of the coin dies. Typical die varieties include doubled dies; repunched mintmarks and dates; variations in the placement or alignment of mintmarks, letters and numbers, devices, etc.; changes to the die surfaces from over-polishing or die clashes; and a number of other minor variations in the final strike of the coin.

Is a difference in frosting enough to make a coin a separate variety? Wouldn't that turn any Ultra-Cameo coin into a different variety? Frosting changes as a die is worn down so, as I understand it, it is now possible to have two or more varieties from a single undamaged die. Does normal wear of a die fit the definition of a variety? Is a First Strike a variety? Would anyone else care to comment on this? Thanks for some input.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com
 
^ Slightly off topic:- Love the Pricepedia Peter, and thanks for the auction PDF you sent out earlier this month... so many different ways I could destroy my/our cash savings :)


I was browsing ebay, another hobby designed to destroy cash savings, and noticed these two 1993 1oz Gold pandas. This could just be the eye of the beholder, differences in lighting, etc., but does the frosting differences extend to the Gold Pandas as well and have NGC recognised these varieties as well?

6077_large_date.jpg
6077_small_date.jpg


The coin on the left is a large date, the one on the right a small date. These pics were scraped from NGC, but the eBay seller's pics showed the same frosting differences.
 
Reggie,

That's part of the issue. There could be hundreds of new "varieties" if differences in frosting are enough to define one. Until now, frosting variations have only been categorized as varieties if their shapes are different which, as far as I know, isn't true for the 1993 Frosted. So it seems a bit questionable by the commonly accepted standards. I have gotten emails from people asking me for an explanation which I don't have. Maybe somebody out there has one. And are we happy with this new direction? If we do proceed down this new path what are the guidelines, and is this good or bad for attracting new collectors?

A related issue is that if registry points are meaningful to you, then the grading services have you pretty well locked in to following their lead, don't they?. Comments????

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
China Pricepedia
http://www.pandacollector.com
 
I am leaning towards it is getting out of control.......bent ear ,fat leg ,6 tuffs, cross eyed :) NGC loves it, more coins to reholder etc etc ,how many 100,s of 2003,s have they seen come back..............??
 
jc888888888 said:
I am leaning towards it is getting out of control.......bent ear ,fat leg ,6 tuffs, cross eyed :) NGC loves it, more coins to reholder etc etc ,how many 100,s of 2003,s have they seen come back..............??
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Totally agree. Soon every year will have different versions, just from mechanical wear on dies.
 
jc888888888 said:
I am leaning towards it is getting out of control.......bent ear ,fat leg ,6 tuffs, cross eyed :) NGC loves it, more coins to reholder etc etc ,how many 100,s of 2003,s have they seen come back..............??
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Gez, that's one ugly Panda you're describing there JC8/8... definitely one to avoid, although I'd like to see pics? :)


I see what you all mean .. after all it's a hobby, not an obsession... probably
 
This variety talk, particularly the rarity and investment aspect of variety is the reason I give up MCC. I so hate the stupid CC. That is the best weapon man ever created to destroy this hobby.

I agree with jc888888888. It is definitely out of control. I don't blame NGC for doing this stupid thing. All the while people wanted competition, and I look at it as the bad consequences of competition.

It only takes PCGS to start recognizing few so called "varieties" and NGC is forced to follow suit. That is competition.

It only takes some people to upload some photos showing the absolute minute differences of 2 coins and called it variety and come out with the estimated mintage figure. All things goes crazy then. That is the beauty of technology.

Pandacollector said:
If we do proceed down this new path what are the guidelines, and is this good or bad for attracting new collectors?
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I don't see this is good for new collectors. Luckily I read in Chinese forum, people in China don't give much thoughts about this minute varieties thing.

Pandacollector said:
A related issue is that if registry points are meaningful to you, then the grading services have you pretty well locked in to following their lead, don't they?. Comments????
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Set registry will become irrelevant if the grading companies keep on adding new varieties.
 
Just to keep the conversation going.. I'm finding it interesting.

Can't the same arguments about how so many varieties hurt the hobby also be applied to NGC/PCGS grades above MS67, i.e. what is the difference between a MS69 and a MS70?

Most people can't tell the difference between these two grades, yet one attracts a far higher price than the other. If there's no noticeable difference between the coins then the price has to be in part determined by the lower number of MS70's out there, or it's just about purchasing a label with MS70 on it. It could also be said all these different grades confuse and put off new collectors.

Speaking as a noobie Panda collector I find the hobby fascinating because it offers such a wide scope of possibilities, which range from buying perfectly acceptable low grade coins for each year at a reasonable price, through to being able to building up a collection based on a single year and spend a small fortune in the process.

So varieties\grades are a good thing.. or else we'd be collecting ASEs (Please don't flame my derrire for mentioning ASEs :) )
 
Reggie Perrin said:
Just to keep the conversation going.. I'm finding it interesting.

Can't the same arguments about how so many varieties hurt the hobby also be applied to NGC/PCGS grades above MS67, i.e. what is the difference between a MS69 and a MS70?

Most people can't tell the difference between these two grades, yet one attracts a far higher price than the other. If there's no noticeable difference between the coins then the price has to be in part determined by the lower number of MS70's out there, or it's just about purchasing a label with MS70 on it. It could also be said all these different grades confuse and put off new collectors.
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Hi Reggie,

Most interesting post.

Most people can't tell the difference between 69 and 70 because coins grading by itself is a complicated subject. One has to start somewhere and learn about the grading, and once you are comfortable with MS60 to MS66, you are in better position to appreciate MS67 to MS70 coins.

Unfortunately for MCC, many (especially those reading only English coins forum) who started are educated to believe only MS69/70 as the rest are rubbish.

As for the significant price difference between two grades, particularly 60 and 70. To me it is a joke. It is one game for rich people who has more money than time to learn. And with any game involving this type of rich people, there is high risk involved. To counter with the risk, you read a lot of hypes to keep these rich people happy and continue to spend money. Hahaha.

Can't the same arguments about how so many varieties hurt the hobby also be applied to NGC/PCGS grades above MS67, i.e. what is the difference between a MS69 and a MS70?

Begin offensive post here. Please ignore if you can't take any offensive post said:
The difference is rich people are chasing high grades, whereas poor people are chasing varieties. Both are trying to create money out of the coins. Now I am not saying all.

I am a poor person, so the 70 talk doesn't border me. Suppose varieties is my way to make money but I am not fortunate to have a ton of coins to go through to pick the varieties, so I am jealous of people who are in better position than me. Hahaha.

Seriously, I was a very happy collector of the 1990 2g phoenix and silver 5 jiao coin, until I went to find out what people talked about this coin in CC. 4 varieties and I thought I was blind. Honestly I did foolishly spent few solid hours looking at the annotation and to try to figure out what varieties my coins belongs to.

Few hours wasted, I have not found my answer. I felt so silly. It is a beautiful coin and all of a sudden I no longer love it. It is an insult to the coin. I can't take it. That very moment I decided to give up MCC and sold the coin.

No thanks to CC.
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I am collecting the copper-nickel circulation coins. Varieties talk are absolute minimum. People do chase high grade but things are a lot stable now. Not bad.

Reggie Perrin said:
So varieties\grades are a good thing.. or else we'd be collecting ASEs (Please don't flame my derrire for mentioning ASEs)
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HAHAHAHAHA. Sorry.

If China is not China, and USA is not USA, who is to say Panda is better than ASE?

Sometimes I really hope China to collapse (happened many, many times in the history), and I will see who is still collecting panda.

China coins are good because we know the money is in China. What if the money is not in China?

Perhaps ASE is not that bad.
 
Let me say, fascinating discussion going on here! This thread is getting juicy, I like it!! Can't wait to hear comeaux, yennus and fishball comment on these developments.

For many and me personally the Pandacollector is the Godfather of Pandas for us westerners... he got me into them, his continual involvement with them and his knowledge is second to none. If he's saying this variety thing is getting out of hand then it is, simple. Soon your NGC label will read like a novel, it will become way too confusing... btw I am very much looking forward to the new book Peter!

Apart from the '95 varieties of which there are 3 I think 2 per year per gold/silver coin is sufficient, indeed that may be all there is. A die wearing out/being maintained improperly does not constitute a variety like small date large date does, not even close. Remember discovering the '95 5yuan small date? Now that's a variety! Personally I think whats happened with this frosting differences a storm in a cup, a common '03 is a common '03, satin, frosted, mirrored, whatever. Just not interested in all in finding out which is rarer. Maybe it's just me and Low who think like that :)

Great posts by Low, PA and reggie here, thanks for the read!
 
Well ,I guess thats what makes the hobbie interesting, anyone can take away from it what makes them happy,I love the beauty of the coins ,and also collect for investment potential, one of the reasons I have not started a registry set is i don't want to get hung up on the aspect of having every coin, and for me it is fun to buy sell and trade them , I don't make real money doing it, I do support my hobbie to some extent , I like the feeling of waiting for a new coin or set to arrive:) like right now I get off work the first thing I have been doing is check the mailbox for a banknote set I just purchased ,cant wait to see it and enjoy it with my girls,it makes me smile, so that is good enough for me........................
 
Minute "variation" are only of interest when your own MS70F1S3 ( frosting type 1, satin grade 3) : roll eyes: turns out to be worth triple the other "varieties".
 
25Grizzlies said:
Let me say, fascinating discussion going on here! This thread is getting juicy, I like it!! Can't wait to hear comeaux, yennus and fishball comment on these developments.

For many and me personally the Pandacollector is the Godfather of Pandas for us westerners... he got me into them, his continual involvement with them and his knowledge is second to none. If he's saying this variety thing is getting out of hand then it is, simple. Soon your NGC label will read like a novel, it will become way too confusing... btw I am very much looking forward to the new book Peter!

Apart from the '95 varieties of which there are 3 I think 2 per year per gold/silver coin is sufficient, indeed that may be all there is. A die wearing out/being maintained improperly does not constitute a variety like small date large date does, not even close. Remember discovering the '95 5yuan small date? Now that's a variety! Personally I think whats happened with this frosting differences a storm in a cup, a common '03 is a common '03, satin, frosted, mirrored, whatever. Just not interested in all in finding out which is rarer. Maybe it's just me and Low who think like that :)

Great posts by Low, PA and reggie here, thanks for the read!
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+1
 
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