Wanted to buy and offers - Get real or Get out!

As a I am primarily a collector I agree entirely with what you have to say, although I live in the UK I am pleased to see quality offerings of collectable coins on here.

I have bought on here a few times and like to think I've offered a fair price for the items I've bought. If people keep offering lowball offers nothing decent is ever going to come up on here, other silver websites are the same, as they have the same punters wanting quality coins for nothing and p--s about over 1 or two.

Get real guys offer a fair price for that elusive coin, or next time it comes up it could cost you considerably more.

 

Personally I'm not haggling. If you're asking for more than you are willing to accept, I'll buy elsewhere. If you don't want to pay what I'm asking, keep moving pal.
Exception would be on large/bulk purchases or numerous items, might suggest rounding down to the nearest $10. Trying to shave a dollar or two off a small purchase is not too different from begging on the corner - expect to be ignored.

 

I don't think anyone takes a low ball offer personally and that certainly wasn't the point I was trying to make. It's not even about treating people well. I have run and been involved in family businesses all my life and customer service has always been a very high priority for me.

However - the point is more that the low ballers are taking the rejection (or silence) personally. Some are acting like they are doing you a favour by making the offer then getting annoyed when you don't accept. They are also not understanding that they are hurting their own reputation and the chances of gettting good deals in the future. I have many people I deal with first before I put an advert on here because I know they will pay a fair price and pay quickly without mucking me around. I'm happy to offer them a better price because of this. So it's a win win. They get a good item at a fair price, I get a fair price with ease.

Take it from a business perspective. Margins on PMs are notoriously tight. If my "profit" on a transaction is $20 (and on a realistic 3% margin this would be a $600+ sale) I can:

Offer it to someone who I know will give me a fair trade quickly. Trade done in a couple of minutes and I'm onto the next thing.

OR

I can offer it on ebay. Advert takes about 5 minutes to write up and I can factor in the extra cost into the price and still make my $20 net profit. I don't have to deal with low ball offers and MOST of the time the process works like clockwork.

OR

I can put an advert up on here, get a stack of low ball offers and spend time responding to each (so I won't be accused of not "treating people well") even though the vast majority of them are well below any definition of reasonable. Trade takes well over 30 minutes and more likely an hour or 2 and I've still only made $20 profit and probably put my blood pressure up by reading some of the responses to my rejection of their ridiculous offers.

Anyway - the original post was just more to give newbies a bit of basic advice on how to survive in this game long term and also I guess for me to vent some frustration at what I see as a deterioration of quality on a really good website.

malachii

 

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx3BVozrrbw[/youtube]

 

Perhaps your lack of feedback speaks volumes for the good manners of the people you traded with. I think you need to rethink your approach if longevity in this area is what you desire. Forget all the hooha about free markets etc. This forum is, in my opinion as a member of the older generation, a great platform for fair and equitable deals that build lasting relationships with like minded people and not a quick buck.

 

You make some interesting points and the conclusions you draw are interesting too. Perhaps you should amend your ads to clearly state your terms for low offers. I would think it not rude to ignore offers that were made were it clearly stated in the ad that they would not be entertained. This makes sense. Customer service includes writing ads that gives buyers clear pathways to deal with your business. Also, if you want to trade with the benefits of being a business then you need to openly declare you are trading as a business. Otherwise you have to wear all the negatives of trading as an individual.

You see your costs to run a business are not my problem as a buyer. The fact you have one and you are used to dealing with your customers is irrelevant if I can't see your business name in the ad or read your terms of business. If you are sneaky and don't disclose and then get upset by lowball offers that really is your issue. Yes, this medium does have a cost of dealing with lowball offers. You want to trade here that is what you get. It is nice to be all business owners together and fix prices and standards that suit your collective money making enterprises but this forum is not a paid for service by you or anyone else.

As for "low ballers" (Nice way to label people and dehumanise them by the way - beware the rude neaderthaal low-ballers!! pfft) expecting you to sell to them at their ridiculous price offers, well some individuals can be rude and have unrealistic expectations. I don't think that name calling is really helpful here. I know those people are annoying who are demanding and rude but seriously, these is just because they are persistent and demanding that they annoy you? After all it is money that you are after and they are doing you the favour of buying off you. Gold and Silver are not needed commodities. Noone will die without them.

I think the problem is that many of you guys trading here are small or family businesses and so you seem to have forgotten that you are SERVICING us, the buyers. We do NOT need you. We can and do deal with larger businesses with lower overheads or just invest elsewhere altogether. To get more of those regular customers you need to continually find new customers or you will have no growth. Selling through these forums at cheap prices is a way to establish relationships. Even if you take a few hits, the cost of advertising via selling or communicating with low ballers (you don't even have to sell at the low ball price) here is really low.

Arrogant attempts to fix prices that protect your profit margins ($20 a sale....for the price of $20 you are willing to alienate the 1 in 4 or 5 low-ballers who are genuine potential long term customers.. this is stunning) seems very narrow. Deciding that buyers need to prove themselves (You said: "not understanding that they are hurting their own reputation and the chances of gettting good deals in the future") is putting the shoe on the wrong foot. *You* need to prove yourself continually. Your reputation is nothing to me. Buying here on this forum offers me no protection at all except for the uncommon face to face deal. Even face to face deals are risky: Brisbane has had one murder over an online currency deal in the last 6 months alone. IE Here ALL the risk is mine except for the small risk you have from spending time creating your ad.

If you want better protection from low-ball offers then go somewhere that offers this sort of protection. If you want to grow your pool of regular online customers then change your narrow minded approach.

I could give you serious references for my opinions and back them up with industry publications and academic articles etc but I really don't have the time. I just give you the awesome benefit of my rightness and you will just have to take it or leave it

 

Yep - think I'll leave it.

malachii

 

^^^ Listed.

 

Great post Miksture like a breath of fresh air in here.

ps yes I even haggle with Perth Mint!!! last years Lunar Silver horses @ $30.61 while others were gouging for $36/$40 with no volume discounts offered.

@ Mallachii next time you trade please check out the "market" depth, not everone trades at the bid or offer at that instant. Some traders position bids from calculating support and restiance points. Cheer$

 

Yes, a total expert on the forum and how it should operate after a whole week here.

I believe in dopplegangers and reincarnation, took me 3 years on here to get my head around it. :/

 

"Total expert" your words. No claim of that .

Seven paragraphs of writen responce to convey the position held. Yes

cheer$ have a great night brother

 

In which case they are intelligent investors/buyers who know fair price - this is exactly what I am asking/suggesting people do. It is the people who don't that was the point of the original post and any subsequent.

Seven paragraphs and vague references to being able to back opinion with industry publications and academic articles if they had more time is not conveying a position rather it is trying to sound grandios without providing substance.

I would challenge anyone to find any industry publications or academic articles which advise businesses to deal with the people who provide the lowest possible profits with the highest time/effort input in an attempt to buy customers as a long term strategy. This is a guarantee to go out of business in a short period of time. Any person who has the attitude of "you need us more than we need you" is not going to survive long as a business or a customer. Talk to anyone here or out in the real world and they will tell you quickly that there are those you deal with and those you avoid at all costs.

I'm happy to provide great service and prices to those who wish to return the favour but I have no desire to go out of business servicing people who want to squeeze the last cent out of a deal at the cost of all others.

malachii

 

Longer-term successful sellers know how to manage buyer expectation and thus gain not only sales, but respect and trust in the market.

There's no point in getting emotional or indignant when market conditions or buyer knowledge results in a mismatch of value expectations.

And there will always be dickheads in the market, both buyers and sellers. Just try not to be one of them. Encourage the good ones and ignore the bad ones.

 

malachii, it isn't worth your effort. I tried to educate another newbie Sonic and it was a waste of time. We have had an influx of new members and some seem to think that everyone exists to serve them. Reminds me of the time a lady walked into my office to interview me about doing her tax return. She had already moved out of state and was needing someone to prepare her return for the prior year. She asked me my references. I said first I would have to see her references. She said "What?". I said I need to see your references before I can consider doing your return. The look on her face was priceless. I sent her to another tax preparer who asked her to pay up front. Needless to say, the lady didn't want to pay up front.

 

You mean like Wall Street? In case you had not noticed you are trading commodities here and people are doing it largely for the purposes of gaining wealth. This is not technically a collectors forum, this is a Silver Stackers forum. You seem to have mistaken the customers purpose for being here. To enhance their personal wealth.

Just because my opinion, which mind you you seem to be unable to actually address, is not the same as yours you stick a negative label on it "grandiose". What exactly is unrealistic about saying you are being unrealistic?

Do your own homework. http://scholar.google.com is where you can start. Then do a full literature review to find out what the body of research is in the area and what the current opinions are. I get paid to do this sort of thing and I will not do it for you for free because you are lazy.

Total fallacy. Where did you get this idea from. Do you know anything at all about economics?

Well of course. Did you notice I said that 1 in 4 or 5 low-ballers could in fact be a potential long term customer? The remainder could very well be people wasting your time. Where did I say different? The problem is you are throwing the baby out with the bath water. You could look at newbie as problems (like you are now) or as opportunities. I myself came into this forum with the idea of *** removed information that may identify me *** over the next year and I was looking to form relationships with the good players.

Some of you think that treating newbies with disdain is a good idea and so you lose out. You continue to treat me, who is actually a real expert, as an idiot and further claim that I have to prove myself to you. Obviously, your little family businesses are growing so quickly that you don't need my money. Congratulations, why don't you retire to the continent and drink fine french champagne in your early retirement?

***Ed: Miksture - How was this for an over-the-top comment. Sorry Malachii, I don't think you deserved this sort of derision.

How is that for real world? You are in it right now. This forum is part of it.

This is an interesting statement, as it is clear that you are not happy. In the commodities field, which this clearly is in it most pragmatic sense, companies and individuals routinely 'squeeze the last cent' out of every deal. How many RFP have you been involved in? It is very cutthroat. I recently worked for *** removed information that may help identify me ***

So here in your little corner of the market you have set up a little kingdom and you are annoyed when people come in wanting to get the best value for their money. Poor you. No wonder your business is small and your vision for the future is also small. To cover the modest or lack of growth in your business you blame your market no doubt when in fact opportunities (oops problems) keep knocking on your door and you turn them away. This explains why you are not one of the large traders.

Imagine what would happen if someone formed a larger franchise in the numismatic space? Set up the Amazon of coins promising lower prices and advertising widely? It would ruin most of you small guys. Why? Because of you.

 

Miksture - "This is not technically a collectors forum, this is a Silver Stackers forum. You seem to have mistaken the customers purpose for being here. To enhance their personal wealth."

I believe you may be the mistaken one with such a broad statement. I stack PMs for many reasons and to enhance my personal wealth comes way down the list. We are, by nature a mixed bunch, but the common thread should be respect. Please do not speak for me and, I believe many others, with your brash and ill informed statements.

 

Miksture - wow - I have absolutely no idea how to reply.

We can split hairs and opinions all day. We are obviously going to disagree. My experiences comes from being a second generation family business owner/investor and holding a business degree (including a major in Economics) from Monash and being involved in senior management of several large aviation companies (I was a commercial pilot by trade) including 1 major international airline. I can only go by my experiences built up and learnt over the last few decades. I don't tend to place too much emphasis on academic opinions and I recognise this may be a weakness of mine.

As the saying goes - those that can, do - those that can't, teach - and those that can't even teach, enter management. I seem to fall in to the last catagory these days

malachii

EDIT: to fix typos.

 

I try to treat people the way I would like to be treated. Enough said.

 

Interesting discussion .

I happen to agree with both sides here .

Malachi makes some very good points as does miksture & the rest of the free market guys .

In the end set your position & dont be offended either way if it doesnt happen.

I for one have said in the past we are getting gouged in oz compared to the us & am happy to see a few players come into the market with small margins like Bigs & thommo . I even started a thread on it congratulating the small premiums & it didnt get a response ! it smacked of people a bit dirty because they would have to be more realistic in there prices . ..Why else wouldnt it get a response ?

I would be interested to know their buyback prices .

Theres many ways to run a business & different business models work for different people . i.e large turnover small profit or small turnover larger profits . Now both models will work & keep your head above water .but its high time australia had some good value bullion .Competition will find true market value .In saying that if everyone wants to buy under spot or spot the market will dry up because you cant buy from a mint for that price unless your buying 1000 oz .so does every body start selling at a loss ? not likely .
There is times where bargains will appear dont expect them everyday would be my advice .

Now numismatics are a whole different ball game & i think this thread was started because someone was trying to buy gold coins at spot -5% . That is what got people a bit hot under the collar . coins generally have a premium & spot would be a fair price . under spot for a(maybe collectable) coin is just being stupid imo & it was recieved with all the glitz & glamour it deserved .