Discussion in 'Silver Coins' started by mmissinglink, Apr 4, 2016.
^ Perhaps your just full of yourself
I think one of the main reasons for me to send to NGC is authenticity (I've been burned), and protection. Plus, I personally like the look of the slabs. But I do understand why some folks would prefer the OMP, especially in the pouch (in the case of the Chinese medals). But I do find it peculiar why someone would take it from a plastic slab and put it into a sizable capsule with black rubber. I mean, at the end of the day, they can do whatever they want with their goods, who am I to argue, but I just find it interesting.
One day, I'd love to own one of those verifiers. However, must of my bullion purchases are Perth Mint coins, and they are made from trusted dealers, and in the shrink wrap. So I'm go there. It more about getting OMP collectibles from eBay, no question I'm getting those graded.
Says the guy who is all full of himself.
You clearly get it.
I frankly don't care what that guy in the video does, but I will remark when I see such a person employing silliness in his thinking and arrogant antagonism in his remarks.
I doubt the guy in the video cares to fondle his coins in his hands because otherwise we would have seen him do that (unless he's attempting to make a pointless point). If he did fondle those coins he breaks out of slabs, then that's a different story....but he's taking them from one plastic holder to put into another plastic holder. It's a silly thing to do in my view.
One thing I have found is that selling for profits sharpens the mind. When one buys with selling in mind you become very in tune with what is going on in the market or product you are investing in. You are living with the consequences of the decisions you make. The whole subject matter goes from theory to real life and theory can be very different than real life.
Very well put.. I also sell a bit and feel as you do, especially with the second and last sentence.
Here's one to make some cringe..
Gonna give mmissing nightmares for weeks! :lol:
Slab-cracking, followed by a jeweler's cloth wipe-down..
Yet another reason why I like slabbed coins, or those that are in Perth Mint wrap or in the Panda cases direct from the big house dealers...thanks for the confirmation Gatito.
One word for this guy: Why?
I am going by logic and observation. Just because someone sells coins, doesn't mean they have a grip on reality and doesn't mean they understand why someone buys a coin. Many sellers that I have come across make all sorts of false assumptions.
If a slabbed coin is a 67 and a raw coin would knowingly grade for no more than a 67, under most circumstances, a buyer would not pay more for the raw coin. Sure, there are examples where someone would, but not most buyers that I have been observing.
This thread started with the above statement. So now the ones who try to shed some light on it don't have a "grip on reality" and "don't understand why someone buys a coin" Someone who sells 1000s of graded coins better have a grip on the market or they are going to lose their shirt. Someone who profitably sells 1000s of graded coins is probably someone whose advice might be good to listen to and learn from. Someone who owns 1000s of graded coins and outlaid zero out of pocket capital to accomplish said stash probably knows what they are talking about. I hope my comments removed some of the mystification. If not, my apologies for taking up message board space. Best of luck in your demystification efforts going forward.
Totally agree. However, PCGS demand still lower than NGC at this moment. NGC still can do whatever and not listen to the voices like us
Take it or leave it
You need to take note of this mmissinglink, because you're guilty of it quite a bit.
You're not an expert in this field, so you should be completely open and appreciative of the comments this thread receives from people that are.
questioning mtforpar on this topic?, not exactly smart.
its his money, its his coin, anyway his liking
the slab can not change the coin, but the coin can get into airtite or slab
people take it out of the OMP put in airtite then move to slab, then someone break it and put back to airtite and put into coin flip
it is still the same coin.
Don't want to get in the middle of it, and not sure if he & mmissing have had a bit of a past elsewhere from what I might recall, but..
Would like to back up mtforpar a bit. I'm somewhat familiar with his track record, and the guy does a pretty good volume from what I'm aware, which I'm sure is just the tip of the iceberg. And don't let that one lonesome feedback here fool anybody.. :lol:
I've done biz with him in the past, and it was an excellent experience. Would do it again in a heartbeat. I figure I got a fair deal on multiple pieces -- and I bet he still made $$ off me.
He's got pretty good taste, too, that appeals to a good chunk of buyers.
Finally, I believe he's been at this for a pretty long time. Got a lot of sales chalked up.
He might be tooting his own horn a bit ( ), but I think it's fairly warranted.
I wouldn't argue with him just for the sake of debate. Guy's got a knack & some good knowledge..
Yeah, no arguement from me. It is his coin, and he can do whatever he pleases with it. LOL. I think the debate, and let's not take things so personal, we're having fun while figuring this stuff out, I am anyway, lol; but the debate is why would one take it out of a plastic slab (and for me, put into another plastic 'slab')?
I think there are good reasons for and good reasons against. Totally get it. I think it depends on the coin, right? Again, this is a debate. For example, if someone tried to sell me a gold panda OMP, without it being in the pouch, forget about it. I don't care if they showed me a video where it was slabbed as a PF69 with an *, then put it into a beautiful looking capsule with black cushion. Just not a chance in heck I would buy it. That's just my person preference. And since I rarely buy Perth Mint Lunars or Kooks individually, I'm not worried about this. And Pandas, I only buy in the sheets or trays, and from a trusted dealer source. So, it really does depend on what coin we're talking about...for me to buy something that was yanked out of a graded slab. But at the end of the day, that guy in the video...all the power to him, I hope he makes a billion.
Yes it's true, some who do sell lots of coins don't have a grip on reality and do make all sorts of presumptions because they don't need to have a grip on reality just to sell coins as evidenced by their own comments.
How many buyers do you inquire of as to precisely why they are buying one coin and not another, mtforpar? That's just what I thought.
I've purchased coins from you on eBay and you are clueless as to the specifics of why I purchased those coins and not others....you never asked me why I am buying those coins and not others so you can't possibly know.....and that's the point.
I know a guy who sells plenty of postage stamps but just like you, he doesn't know why most of his customers buy the specific items they do other than that's what they desire. Years ago I sold women's shoes on eBay and just like you, I knew no specifics as to why certain one's were chosen over another other than that's what the buyers desired. It's the "why" that you clearly don't know mtforpar, and you simply make presumptions. And so long as not knowing the specifics doesn't matter, it means that you are no more knowledgeable than I am about the specific question I previously raised.
Besides, the conversation moved forward a while before you chimed in and other things were thrown out there (namely in response to the video Gatito posted). So my comments to you took into consideration those other things.
Lastly, you are talking oranges and I am talking apples. I have already acknowledged things that you claimed but you seem oblivious to those acknowledgements of mine and to the points I've made. That's your deficit, not mine.
Best of luck with your sales!
Ha ha ha....says the guy who is guilty of this regularly. You realize that I never take you seriously because you regularly spew nonsense.
If you bothered to do anything but run your mouth like a overflowing sewer, you'd have realized that in my 2nd response to mt (post #20), I told him that I appreciate his view.
So please stop injecting yourself into discussions that you do nothing but add your typical filth.
As for the arrogant guy in the video who removes coins from one plastic container just to put it into another plastic container, no one here is bothered that he does that, including of course myself. What i was criticizing is his nutty 'logic' and his obnoxious attitude. He could have easily did a video that was much better and much shorter if he would have cut out the antagonism and the unnecessary parts and instead just stated that this is what and why he transferring from plastic to plastic. End of story. But that arrogant guy didn't do that and I criticized what needed to be criticized.
It's really not complicated....why some seem to make it out to be is maybe more about their politic correctness than anything.
Thanks, I am glad to hear you are a customer. Hopefully, a satisfied one.
While I don't talk to every customer since no one can, I talk to plenty of them. And I do mean plenty. Lots of potential customers message me and ask my opinion on lots of subjects. I talk to people on message boards publicly and via PMs. I network extensively with dealers and customers at coins shows. I even privately consult on modern coin releases as I have developed relationships with industry experts who value my opinion and incorporate it in their designs. I seek out subject matter expects and try to learn what I can. I listen intently to customers feedback to understand how I can better server their needs. I realize you don't know me personally but your assumptions about me not talking to customers could not be father from the truth. Their feedback is vital to my success.
The unique thing about coins is that it is an ever evolving subject so one is always learning. So while one can never know all there is I can confidently state that I do know quite a bit about the modern coin market and I hope my contributions are helpful to most of the fine board members here.
As to the original subject there are quite a few reasons people crack slabs...to find out why just ask the slab cracker and they will go on and on and on about why they do it.
Yes, the transactions with you were smooth and your prices on those items I purchased were reasonable. I've left you 5 Stars feedback with every coin I've purchased from you.
I don't doubt that you communicate with plenty of customers (and I never suggested otherwise) but that in no way, shape, or form means that you inquire of many or any of them specifically why they wouldn't purchase a less costly slabbed (top tier TPG) coin and instead purchase a raw coin of the same kind if they are convinced that the grade/condition of the raw coin is no better than that of the slabbed. Now there may be some people who would pay more money for a raw coin that is not in better condition/grade than a slabbed coin but my contention has been that most people wouldn't.
Also, of course I know that on occasion that a slabbed coin of the same exact grade/condition can on occasion be found at a lower cost than a raw coin in the same exact grade/condition....my point is that this is not the norm from everything I observe and note. I spend hours every day keeping an eye on sales of and offers for sales of different coins slabbed and raw. The vast majority of coins that I have been observing are more costly slabbed than they are raw when they are in the same condition.
I am long past knowing that some people crack coins out of slabs and I am long past knowing about the "hope" that some people may feel in believing that the raw coin they purchase will grade at least as high as they subjectively hope it will but my specific point in this thread after Gatito posted the first video clip is why would someone do that (buy a more expensive raw coin if they were convinced it isn't in better condition than a slabbed one of the same type).
I have also been aware for quite some time that there are those who crack slabs open because the coin inside has developed serious milking post grading such as in this instance......
But again, this is far and few between I believe because I have seen enough slabbed coins (still in their slab) being offered for sale on eBay and elsewhere to know that many (if not most) of these post graded milk spotting coins are left in the slab.
Finally, I believe I have come to my own independent conclusion in regards to my original concern regarding the frequency with which coins are removed from their slab. According to PCGS, they have graded more than 32.5 million coins. NGC claims they've graded more than 33 million. ANACS has been in business for 40 years....I will assume they have graded tens of millions of coins as well. My conclusion is that any claim which asserts that a notable number of these 100 million or so slabbed coins have been removed from their slab is exaggerated.....wildly exaggerated. It's only on (rare) occasion (comparatively speaking) that coins are broken out of their slabs.
Thank you all for your input, opinions, and ideas on this subject.
The disclaimer is really only valid when it comes to a specific subset of graded coins.
Very few modern graded bullion coins are cracked out, same with modern commemoratives, at least when we're talking about MS/PF69 or higher.
MS/PF68 or lower might have a higher occurence of crack outs, but only when there is substantial value increase in getting an upgrade.
If we take a 1995 Micro date silver panda, a 1999 Large Date Serif silver panda or a 2001 Small D silver panda, getting an upgrade might be a worthwhile effort as the value increases by $200-$300 by going from MS68 to MS69.
An upgrade could result in a 50% to more than 100% increase in value, so playing the upgrade game could be benifitial, especially as the downside is somewhat limited as a raw coin generally cost about the same as a MS68.
Got the same grade? Try again or keep as is, alternatively sell and losing only the extra grading fee.
Got a downgrade? Try again or crack out and sell as a raw coin, again mainly losing the grading fees put into the specific coin.
Got an upgrade? Nice, pass go and collect $200 dollars.
Looking at 2015 or 2016 MS69 crackouts it's a whole different ball game, the price difference between these can be less then the cost of grading, making an impossible 100% success rate in getting an upgrade to MS70 still result in a loss.
The same thing is true with older coins, possibly with a few other factors included as well.
Getting an upgrade of a common date morgan dollar, where uncirculated higher grades are plentiful, would likely be a loss.
On the other hand, getting just 1 Point higher on a key date could net you thousands of dollars in profit.
Other reasons for cracking out older coins would be that the number and types of collectors of these have a wider span when it comes to numismatics.
Some swear by their DANSCO albums, other by having binders with 2x2s, not to forget people with cabinets etc.
Having a larger collection of say 8000 coins or more makes a world of difference in how they're stored, one shelf of binders on a sturdy oak book shelf, a single large coin cabinet, or half a room stacked floor to ceiling with slabs.
But why not purchase raw instead of cracking out one might ask?
Well, one part is authenticity, with the amount of fakes in circulation even a fairly decent numismatist might get fooled.
By having the experts verify a coin as genuine the risk of this drops significantly.
Another is cost, if a raw coin and a graded coin at the same grade are close in price, opting for the graded one might feel being worth a small premium, especially having the above reason in mind.
It takes less effort/results in fewer surprises, with a grade already set, it's easy to create an album of uncirculated morgans by cracking out graded ones, as opposed to gambling on raws that turns out to be a case of creative photography...
Not to forget, Eye-appeal, if you find your dream coin and it happens to be slabbed, cracking it out to put in your collection could be considered worth it even if you end up removing some premium the slab adds.
That my 2c on the issue.
AgAuSwe. your analysis is really terrific. Thank you for being so explicit with details.
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