Removing coins from slab

Discussion in 'Silver Coins' started by mmissinglink, Apr 4, 2016.

  1. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    I am a little mystified, so maybe you can shed some light on this.

    Because of authenticity assurance (risk against paying money for a well made fake) and because I like owning the highest grade of a particular type, I collect certain coins/medals that are TPG slabbed (by either NGC, PCGS, or ANACS....depending on the type of coin). As a matter of curiosity at times and instructive price evaluation at other times, I regularly find myself checking the census / population reports on the NGC and the PCGS sites ( https://www.ngccoin.com/census/ and http://www.pcgs.com/pop/default.aspx?t=1 respectively).

    Interestingly enough, today for the first time, I noticed this comment as part of a disclaimer on the NGC site: "Certified coins are often removed from their holders without notice to the grading service. Therefore, computer tallies utilized to provide population reports may be misleading."

    So, my question is, how often might this actually happen and other than having a coin get regraded by a TPG, why would a coin/medal be removed from a sealed slab?

    Finally, does this mean that if I am looking at a population report which indicates that 1,000+ coins of a specific type have been graded at 69 and only 10 graded at 70, might there actually be less of these slabbed coins due to some notable number of slabs being cracked open so that the coin can be removed for whatever reasons?




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  2. Ipv6Ready

    Ipv6Ready Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I'm no expert but I've read that people who are not happy with a certain grade for numi coins resubmit for a better grade.

    I presume more for circulated rare coins, where few points might mean hundreds or thousands of $$$$

    Presumely almost all silver coins that are sold uncirculated in capsules will have thousands in 69 or 70 so unlikely?
     
  3. STC

    STC Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    PF70 in its slab should be safe. Not worth to resubmit & hope for the same grade.
    68 & lower may be prone & discarded slabs if filled with fakes could be passed on.
    PF/MS 68/69 population could be muddied up but wouldn't make much difference, Just my theory.
    Beware the ugly MS68!
     
  4. Ronnie 666

    Ronnie 666 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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  5. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

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  6. barsenault

    barsenault Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, he's nuts. I can't imagine yanking my collectibles out of the slabs. I like them in there for a lot of reasons. I think those things with the fugly black rubber are 100 x's worse than a slab. I thought the black rubber causes some serious fugly toning too. Yep, that guy is nuts.
     
  7. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    The guy in that video is an imbecile.

    He thinks he pisses off others when all he is doing is making some of us shake our head realizing he's an idiot.

    Why is he an idiot?

    1) Because he is likely paying needlessly high premiums for a coin that he could get for a lot less money, raw.
    2) He claims he can't stand a coin in a plastic slab because he can't "freely handle it" and "move it about"....so he puts it in a plastic capsule.
    3) He gets enjoyment out of breaking plastic slabs open just so he can put the coins in plastic capsules.
    4) He presumes that one can't buy a nice looking raw coin.

    Amazing how dense some people out there in YouTube land are. :rolleyes:



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  8. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    Just found this video....it's tangentially related.... [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1thY5lHzkLE[/youtube]



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  9. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

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    Eh, to be fair, Cull Silver has been collecting for longer than NGC has been around.


    And while I might disagree with some of his thoughts & philosophies, cracking open slabs is not one of them, believe it or not.

    Not my cup of tea, and I wouldn't do it personally, but I can see how some might hate slabs so much that they'll pop 'em open.. And he's far from being the only fairly-respected YouTuber who shares that feeling.

    I give people a pass on this one.



    As for price? You might be surprised that sometimes a slabbed 69 is actually cheaper than raw..

    (Not to mention that storage is cheaper, too, because an unslabbed coin takes up less space. ;) )
     
  10. barsenault

    barsenault Well-Known Member

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    I still say he's nuts. I agree with missing on taking it out of one piece of plastic only to put it in another with black poop, oops, I mean rubber ring. But, hey, to each his own, right? It's what makes the world turn. I still say he nuts, and I don't care how long he's been doing this, but that's just my opinion.
     
  11. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

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    He's a product of a different era -- one during which slabbing wasn't "a thing." And he simply never went along with it when it did come about.

    Besides, age isn't really a factor, anyway. Some collectors in their 30's & 40's hate slabs, too, and sometimes even crack them open if/when they come into possession of one.


    When I first learned of people doing that, I, too, thought they were being stupid, and that it was a waste..

    But after a while, I started seeing their POV. If they want to do it, then, hey, that's their business.


    Honestly, sometimes I wonder what it would be like to not only see what some of my old slabbed numi's would be like raw, but also to *gasp* actually hold them! (The circulated ones, anyway.. No way am I touching old MS's or proofs! ;) )

    I would never actually go through with it, but I can see how it would be pretty cool.



    Anyway, yeah, I'm a direct-fit air-tite guy.. But, I might someday have no choice with certain diameters which I may come to own.

    I've got exactly one of those black-ringed ones.. It came with my "AT" ASE. Actually left it in there, cuz it's a great contrast to all the vibrant colors, IMO. :cool:
     
  12. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    That he has been collecting longer than NGC has been around is irrelevant to my criticisms of his idiotic behavior. Maybe he is senile....he sure could pass for that. :rolleyes:

    As for a raw 69 being more costly than a authenticated/slabbed top tier TPGed 69 coin of the same exact kind....I'm not buying that claim except for the odd exception. In most cases, it doesn't make any sense that a top tier slabbed coin is less costly than what appears to be an identical (in every way) raw coin.

    If that guy hates coins in plastic, why is he putting them in plastic after he breaks open the plastic??? It's ridiculous what he's asserting and doing. Now, If he broke out the coin from a slab so that he could touch and handle the actual coin, then that's very different and I wouldn't have so much of a bone to pick with him.

    Also, the notion that it takes up too much room to store coins in a plastic slab but not too much room to store coins in a plastic capsule is absurd in my view. Besides, it looks like he likes to display his coins, not store them...so the tiny fraction of space one might conceivably argue is so critical is a moot point for someone who likes to display those coins he broke out of one plastic just to put inside another.




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  13. barsenault

    barsenault Well-Known Member

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    2-0 to missing. :lol:
     
  14. mtforpar

    mtforpar Member

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    Once a coin is slabbed a 69 it is a 69. If it is in an air tite or OMP there is always the hope that it is a 70. Even more so since most people cannot tell the difference between a 69 and a 70. Therein lies why a raw coin can be worth more than a 69. "Hope".

    Right now it is not the case, but one day I suspect that OMP coins may be worth more than graded...Since so many are graded these days those remaining in OMP are rarer.
     
  15. Gatito Bandito

    Gatito Bandito Active Member

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    Raw sometimes more expensive than slabbed 69? Example off the top of my head: ATB BU's in the past.


    Having a coin in a much smaller air-tite is a much different experience than in a big slab.. We all know that.

    Does he ever take it out of the capsule for a bit? No idea, would have to ask him. Does he have the option to? Absolutely. Can't say the same about a slab (especially when it comes to replacing some scratched plastic that's affecting the beauty of the coin!).


    And yes, air-tites are way smaller than slabs. And it adds up fast. Try storing 20 capsules vs 20 slabs. Then make it 50. Now 100+.. :p


    I don't know the guy or his habits, but yes, looks like he might display some of his coins sometimes. At least temporarily. Perhaps just for YouTube vids? But maybe after a while he just swaps some others out at the SDB.


    Anyway, sounds like he's buying the coin -- not the slab. ;)


    Hey, don't argue with me.. I'm not the one doing it. Go hop on YouTube & give him sh|t. :lol:

    Not defending him or condoning what he does.. Just that mountains are being made out of molehills, here. His coins, he can do whatever he wants.. And that I can simply see those slab-crackers' POV.

    YMMV


    P.S. GB 0 - MM 0 :p
     
  16. Silverpv

    Silverpv New Member

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    lol.. i'm the type that cuts them out of omp and sends them off for grading, best of both worlds! like this guy! Also think of it this way when he cracks them out, that's one less being sold on the market, until it gets sold off again and regraded, which will probably be a deal for someone down the line.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU9H1uL7SlY[/youtube]
     
  17. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    What I'm referring to is someone who is reasonably certain about the grade of the raw coin. You can't compare 2 coins of different grades and then claim that someone would pay more for the raw coin....of course someone knowledgeable would if that person was reasonably certain (predictable "hope") that the raw coin was a higher grade than the slabbed coin and the difference in grade is a good enough reason for that person to pay more.

    My contention is, is that in normal circumstances, for 2 coins that are the same exact grade, the top tier slabbed coin will fetch more money the vast majority of the time over the raw coin if both are fairly priced. Now maybe there are slight differences in that normalcy between certain genres of coins but I just can't see why most people would pay more for a coin in the same grade raw rather than slabbed.....unless they don't care about the grade at all.

    So I can only assume you are referring to a minuscule percentage of people who today will pay more for a raw coin than for a coin which is in the exact same condition but already slabbed by a top tier TPG. The vast majority of coin buyers out there will, I suspect, always buy the slabbed coin over the raw if the two coins are knowingly of the same condition.




    I normally agree that to each their own, but that knucklehead in the video is talking trash.

    What would be the reason someone pays more for a raw ATB of the same exact condition than the same ATB slabbed by a top tier TPG?

    A slab is definitely not much bigger than a capsule....at least not for the size of coins the guy in the video was cracking out of the slab. Now of course "big" is a subjective term, but I'm talking about what is most reasonable. Most people that I'm aware of store coins, whether slabbed or in a capsule, in a container that is in the shape of a box (4 right angles, 2 sets of parallel sides....you get the picture). Since slabs also have 4 right angles and 2 sets of parallel sides, they fill the box quite efficiently. Round capsules on the other hand have a loss of about 22.5% of space for every capsule. Round capsules put in boxes is not a very efficient use of space. And of course a slab will almost always have more surface area than a capsule for the same sized coin, but when you take into account the nearly 23% loss of space when putting a round object into a box, the difference seems hardly meaningful under normal circumstances.

    Besides, if someone is that obsessed with saving space, then they shouldn't use a capsule at all because even the tightest fitting capsule is bigger than the raw coin itself.


    I'll give you that a coin can be taken out of a capsule and not a sealed slab for the purpose of fondling....but why even put a Libertad (as just the first example that comes to mind) in a capsule in the first place if you are going to fondle the coin in your hands? If I want a Libertad to fondle in my hands, I am not going to bother to break it out of a capsule every time I want to do this. I'll just keep the Libertad raw and naked the way a fondleable Libertad should be kept. :D

    I'll also give you that he may only temporarily display the coins (possibly only for the purpose of making the video).

    And yes, I do understand the principle of buying the coin, not the slab....but the guy in the video wasn't making that point....or if he was, he did a terrible job at it.


    As someone who likes raw (sometimes in OMP) and slabbed coins and medals, I can say that I don't have a horse in the race of which is better, raw vs slabbed but what I can say is that I can't see a time where I will beak open one of my plastic slabbed coins just so that I can put it into a plastic capsule...it just doesn't make sense to me to do that under any normal circumstance I can think of.


    GB = 2, ML = 2

    Cheers! :cool:



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  18. mtforpar

    mtforpar Member

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    Missing....I don't want to enter into a debate....I can just tell you first hand as someone who sells lots and lots of graded coins that in many cases the 69 sells below raw. The percentage is not minuscule. To each his own, and I know it may not make sense but it is my experience nonetheless....I am just sharing it as a data point of information that one can use ...or not use...in their purchasing decisions.
     
  19. Aureus

    Aureus Active Member Silver Stacker

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    NGC graders are good, sure, but their opinion means absolutely nothing to a very large percentage of coin collectors.
    If you have a good eye for what you're collecting, buying an ungraded coin is not a stupid move. I can understand why there are people out there against the monopoly NGC has, they've become far too instrumental in affecting coin prices.
     
  20. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    I appreciate your perspective.

    That a raw coin sells for more than a slabbed coin is irrelevant unless the 2 coins are the same grade and the buyer of the raw coin is certain that the raw coin s/he is buying is of a grade that is no higher than the slabbed coin of the same exact grade. When I talk about a slabbed coin, I am talking about a properly graded slabbed coin....that's exactly why I state that the two coins must be of the same grade. It would make no sense if the slabbed coin was improperly graded and then the comparison is rather meaningless.

    I also didn't claim that no raw coin of the same grade as a fairly graded top tier TPG slabbed coin couldn't sell for more....only that it's not common from what I have been observing.

    Perhaps we have very different experiences and perhaps we are looking at very different genres of coins. Perhaps you are not understanding my points.



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