Platinum at 10 years low BUY or NOT buy

Discussion in 'Platinum' started by andrewlee10, Aug 16, 2018.

  1. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    how many varieties of palladium coins for sale as bullion coins out there ?
    not as many as gold and silver
    far lesser than platinum coins too
     
  2. milled

    milled Active Member

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    1. Russia is the main supplier and South Africa I think the biggest Platinum supplier. The latter had industrial action and power outage issues which are now resolved enough to bring supply back on line after a supply crunch.
    2. Catalytic converters - platinum I think is mainly for diesel and diesel vehicles are out of favour. Pd is for petroleum based systems and the market for this remains strong.
     
  3. milled

    milled Active Member

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    the Asian jewelry market also is not currently favourable to platinum.

    So basically there is new supply from SA and falling demand from the main markets (motor vehicles and jewelry)
     
  4. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Why do you think petroleum cars can't switch back to using platinum? What benefits does palladium have as a catalyst? Price was once a reason, but that is no longer the case.
     
  5. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Once Chinese woman find out that European women prefer platinum, I'm sure they will switch over fast. Though once that happens European women will stop wanting platinum. Like when every Chinese woman starting buying Gucci, Gucci's image was destroyed in the high end market in the western world.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  6. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    not buying any Platinum yet, not after Russia dump their Platinum
     
  7. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Why would Russia dump pt at an all time low? They would dump their Pd instead?
     
  8. milled

    milled Active Member

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    good question and I am not an automotive chemical engineer, so I don't want to lead you up the garden path.

    this means a memory trip back to organic chemistry in my late adolesence...(don't read too much into that) :D

    a basic issue for a converter is to remove environmentally harmful nitrogen (nitric and nitrous) oxides formed in the incomplete combustion of hydrocarbon fuels (air is 80% nitrogen).

    Removal I think is done by removing or adding electrons between nitrogen and oxygen species (oxidation and reduction), so that in effect nitrogen is removed and what you get out the muffler is more carbon dioxide and water. Remember that these precious metals are excellent conductors of electrons, so it makes sense they would be used as an instrument of electron transfer. (note gold is also a good choice in catalytic converters).

    In terms of this "redox", platinum is good at oxidation and palladium at reduction, so I would think that infers the different hydrocarbon mixes of refined petroleum and diesel lend themselves better to chemical reaction with relatively high ratio washcoats of palladium and platinum respectively. This may have to do with the relatively smaller number of hydrogen molecules attached to the carbons in petroleum distillate as those carbons have double or triple bonds (ie attached to other carbons rather than to hydrogen molecules). The ratio of carbon to hydrogen is therefore lower in petrol, due to these covalent bonds.

    That's a lay take.

    Rhodium, a byproduct of platinum, is the best of the bunch in terms of reactivity (ie binding) with nitrogen, but cost is insane and so is used relatively sparingly. It has the least elastic supply for reasons of there being no current mined primary ore bodies and due to current cost of extraction, a tiny worldwide supply. It therefore stands to be a better investment if investing in this group, I think.
     
  9. milled

    milled Active Member

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    that said, all are a bet on the automotive industry
     
  10. milled

    milled Active Member

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    more precisely, vehicles using catalytic converters
     
  11. milled

    milled Active Member

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    "Why would Russia dump pt at an all time low? They would dump their Pd instead?"

    The answer again may lie in the unpopularity of diesel
     
  12. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    if this is accurate
    In 2017, South Africa produced 140 tonnes of platinum, with Russia producing 21 tonnes. The same year, the rest of the world combined produced 34,9 tonnes, meaning that South African and Russian production alone accounted for some 82 percent of total output.

    you can take over the 34.9 tonnes by bankrupting their producers and have total control of this metal with your friend
    by dumping Pd would only help Pt

    the same logic with Russia buying oil from many oil producers, why would a world top oil producer buying oil
     
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  13. milled

    milled Active Member

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    Even if we don't include wealthy Chinese diaspora in Taiwan and the Straits, Mainland China (now including HK) constitutes the world's largest economy or very close to it. Western Europe is relatively small and therefore there are less consumers willing to buy PGM jewelry.

    If you have evidence the market for platinum jewelry is rising in the EU, that would be interesting (please share). I see the motivations of the rising middle and upper classes of Asia as the same elsewhere, but as they are relatively new (mainland China), the desire for status symbols makes sense.
     
  14. milled

    milled Active Member

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    If Russia is dumping Pt, then another reason may be to try and force marginal Pt producers out of business, but that may be for a different reason to straightforward economics.
     
  15. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I never suggested platinum sales was rising and thus have no info off the bat to provide. I just make reference to how many western women view platinum. Just like how i know women like diamonds, but god help you if they find out it's a man made diamond that is equal to the natural one. They want blood. :eek:
     
  16. milled

    milled Active Member

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    Don't tell them :D
     
  17. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    sent them to crystals city and better left
    woman are always right
     
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  18. milled

    milled Active Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  19. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I'm not understanding what you wrote that explains my question on why palladium is a better catalyst then platinum? To this day my only understanding for the switch was due to cost and supply.

    Can you please link your findings where they show a palladium based catalytic converter vastly out performing a platinum one?
     
  20. milled

    milled Active Member

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    It is not a general matter of which is the better catalyst in general but of what works best with each fuel.

    They act as a catalyst because they allow (catalyse) chemical reactions to occur at a temperature much lower than otherwise would be the case, ie the temperature in a car exhaust system.

    These metals (as they are currently used) perform somewhat different electron transfer functions in the redox reaction (where the metal facilitates transfer of electrons from one molecular species to another).

    Right now, petrol based systems are more in demand and so your question may better be answered by an understanding of why this is the case. Diesel engines cost more and part of this may be due to pollution regulations (eg related to the VW emissions scandal in recent years...diesel also belches out a lot of particulates, meaning more expensive filtration systems). More expensive manufacturing leads to less market competitiveness, at least for new vehicles and that may be a driver of what we are seeing in the PGM market.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018

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