Platinum at 10 years low BUY or NOT buy

Discussion in 'Platinum' started by andrewlee10, Aug 16, 2018.

  1. milled

    milled Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    To my understanding (which isn't saying much) it is down to what works better with diesel and what works better with petroleum - they have different dominant hydrocarbons. They both work and historically cost was a factor in what was used in the historical development of the converter.


    I don't have enough knowledge to be sure (my relevant science is quite old now), so I am going to outright plagiarise (from Matthey).

    "The operating requirements for diesel catalysts are typically very different from those for three-way catalysts.

    Platinum has historically been favoured for use in diesel after treatment because the exhaust stream of a diesel engine is a highly oxidising environment and, under these conditions, palladium is readily converted to the less catalytically-active palladium oxide, whereas platinum remains in its metallic form.

    By comparison, in the more reducing environment of a gasoline engine’s exhaust, palladium exists as the more catalytically-active palladium metal. As a result, palladium is generally a less active catalyst under diesel conditions than it would be in a gasoline vehicle."

    http://www.platinum.matthey.com/doc...ladium-use-in-diesel-oxidation-catalysts-.pdf
     
  2. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,470
    Likes Received:
    528
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sydney
    I never asked that, i only asked why do you think palladium performs better then platinum in petrol cars. As you said "Pd is for petroleum based systems"
     
  3. milled

    milled Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    So basically, palladium gets eaten up in a diesel engine, but platinum stays the same, ie the system will last longer if platinum is used.

    On the other hand, palladium is a better catalyst for petrol, meaning that it reduces nitrogen oxides to nitrogen and oxygen gases better than Pt.
     
  4. milled

    milled Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    "By comparison, in the more reducing environment of a gasoline engine’s exhaust, palladium exists as the more catalytically-active palladium metal. As a result, palladium is generally a less active catalyst under diesel conditions than it would be in a gasoline vehicle."

    I think that works
     
  5. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,470
    Likes Received:
    528
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sydney
    Can you please link some references confirming this. Off the top of your head what percentage is palladium a more effective catalyst then platinum in petrol cars?

    All the articles i seem to find point to the price being a motive to switch from Pt to Pd for petrol cars.
     
  6. milled

    milled Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    the corollary of that is if it is a less active catalyst, then more crap comes out the exhaust "under diesel conditions"
     
  7. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,470
    Likes Received:
    528
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sydney
    why do you keep mentioning diesel? I'm not interested in diesel cars, just petrol cars.
     
  8. milled

    milled Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Not ducking your question deliberately, but the emissions issue seems to be the clincher. If it is not as robust a catalyst, it follows more emissions come from Pt converters in a diesel vehicle and thus to meet new standards for emissions the cost of modification to meet this standard seems to be too expensive compared to Pd-petrol converters.

    See this:
    http://www.platinum.matthey.com/documents/new-item/pgm market reports/pgm_market_report_may_2018.pdf

    This report looks quite useful for the bigger picture. In short, there is a new EU standard for new vehicles which is bearish for platinum and another in the US which favours Pd. Either way, in this report, rhodium has a bullish outlook.
     
  9. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2018
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Singapore
    Chinese demand for precious metals is not as large as the pushers want us to believe. One way to gauge the demand is from the performance of Perth mint Lunars vs Queen beasts. European purchasing power for jewellery and gold especially should not be underestimated.
     
  10. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2011
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    537
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Pulau Alor ;)
    Washington reportedly offered its partners in Europe and Asia subsidies to buy non-Chinese equipment so they ditch Huawei or any other Chinese firm, such as ZTE.

    so bribery can explain why certain products can be sold at below production costs
    just like US paying Israel 3 B each year to cover their budget or other purpose
     
  11. milled

    milled Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    I've read much the same but now that the price of Pt is comparatively cheap, you would think that would influence a shift to Pt converters in petrol cars away from Pd, but that isn't obvious to see. So, price alone does not seem to explain it.

    To answer your question, leo25, could it be the new emissions standards specific to nitrogen oxides?

    Pt has low ability to cataylse NOx (eg NO2 -> N2 + O2) whereas Pd can be a lot better.

    Therefore, Pd would be a better option to meet the new standard.

    The best PGM for the job though is Rhodium
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  12. sgbuyer

    sgbuyer Active Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2018
    Messages:
    306
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Singapore
    Have you seen the Rhodium chart?

    [​IMG]
     
  13. milled

    milled Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Thanks sg, I know that infomine graphic well and looked at it first in 2008 (that site had a great function for plotting several metals on the same graph and different currencies). Back then there were almost no options to buy rhodium. You could buy powder but that was not easily available or you could buy tiny minted medallions with astronomical markup, so no point.

    I bought some bars in the low in 2016 and even then there was a hefty price on top of the spot for a Baird bar. Regrettably I also bought a couple kilo bags of florins, also heavily above spot, though now selling at or close to spot here. The rhodium bars are worth 3 times my buy price.

    From memory, Rhodium total world annual supply is about 760000 oz. For platinum that is around 18-20 million oz.

    As you see in your graph, when demand is strong, the supply side is quite inelastic and that leads to very rapid price escalation.
     
  14. milled

    milled Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
  15. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,470
    Likes Received:
    528
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sydney
    milled likes this.
  16. leo25

    leo25 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2,470
    Likes Received:
    528
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Sydney
    Note to self. Buy as much Rhodium as possible in the next crash :)
     
  17. alor

    alor Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2011
    Messages:
    5,844
    Likes Received:
    537
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Pulau Alor ;)

Share This Page