Discussion in 'Silver' started by Ron Currie, Nov 7, 2012.
Does anyone collect RAM anyway?
Now we have to ask about what Perth states on their Brochure titled - The Australian Precious Metals Program
As well as annual design changes, the coins' restricted mintages
create the potential for even greater investment return in the
form of a numismatic premium.
How are our coins supposed to gain a numismatic premium if you have the authority to remint older unlimited coins?
My gut feeling says you probably wouldn't but what we need is hard copy facts that say you won't???
Now we learn that's it's just not the limited issue coins but "All" unlimited coins that are not Mint To Order; that's a hell of a lot more coins than most of us thought!
So Ron, if you are about are you going to close off the unlimited mintages of the old coins as well?
You said the limited mintages from 1986 to 2002 are now closed but there's a lot more coins for you to close. I hope you can address this anomaly quickly. (Your Post number 87 on this thread)
That's a lot of unlimited Kookaburra coins. :|
1990 - 2011 Unlimited Kookaburra Mintage
We will continue to make annual 1oz Kookaburra silver bullion coins so long as mintage is available.
But your question misses the fact that 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 1oz Kookaburras are SOLD OUT and there is no longer mintage available!
We will make other sizes of silver bullion Kookaburras where demand arises.
Silver bullion Koalas are unlimited coins offered on a mint-to-order basis. As we've said before, production of Koalas remains open only until the end of the year of issue. Asking whether they can be re-minted does not make sense.
For further clarity here is a summary of the information available in our Bullion Brochures (which are available on our blog at: http://www.perthmintbullion.com/au/...ils_2013_Australian_Bullion_Coin_Program.aspx)
AUSTRALIAN SILVER BULLION COINS
Australian Lunar II
1oz - Maximum Mintage of 300,000 - Production remains open until the mintage is fully sold or until the end of the 12-year series, in which case the mintage will be declared.
1 Kilo - Unlimited Mint-to Order - Production remains open until the end of the 12-year series and the mintage will be declared.
10oz, 5oz, 2oz, 1/2oz Unlimited Mint-to-Order Production remains open until the end of the year of issue and the mintages will be declared.
1oz Maximum Mintage of 1 million - Production remains open until the mintage is fully sold.
1 Kilo, 10oz Unlimited Production remains open indefinitely.
1 kilo, 10oz, 1oz, 1/2oz Unlimited Mint-to-Order Production remains open until the end of the year of issue and the mintages will be declared.
No mention about privy mintage/restrictions?
I guess not :lol:
Thank you Ron for your time
Your policy on the 1oz is now understood - no confusion at all.
The only confusion I had was that the 10oz kooks and 1kg kooks 1991- onwards) were unlimited (like the Koala) yet were not closed off like the koala at the year end.
How you you planning to continue minting the 10oz or 1kg old coins when there is no mintage maximum as there is for the 1oz ?
Likewise the 2oz had no mintage.
I know you are considering these issues but when you have considered this can we have a clear picture of the 2oz ,10oz and 1kg old kooks. Should they not be closed off as unlimited like the Koala.
All the recent privies are sold out and all of the older privies that had a mintage limit can be re-minted up to their mintage limit unless they are sold out.
The privy coins:
2012 Kookaburra with dragon privy.
2011 Koala with bear Privy
2012 Koala with bear Privy
2012 Dragon with bear privy
All had a limited mintage and all have sold out.
Perth won't re-mint a limited mintage that has sold-out.
2012 Dragon with Lion Privy.
Ron, you still haven't addressed the very first question posted on this thread regarding privy coins.
I assume the Perth Mint is going to continue the 'Privy Experiment' because it prefers profits over happy customers?
You could have simply invented new coin designs, but instead have exceeded the set mintage limits by adding a tiny mark. Very poor form my friend.
There's nothing stopping them from bringing out privy coins next year with an ever increasing mintage limit.
The 2013 privy snake has already been approved by treasury.
Perth have been minting privy coins for many years or at least 1992.
If you look at the Currency Determinations, they can help you work-out what to purchase in the future.
Some of the privy coins are very collectable infact the 2012 Dragon with Berlin Bear was the first Lunar ever with a privy mark and has a strong following.
If people don't want a privy mark coin, why not buy the 1oz coin without privy mark or buy one of the 1/2oz, 2oz, 5oz,10oz or kilo coins.
"Some of the privy coins are very collectable infact the 2012 Dragon with Berlin Bear was the first Lunar ever with a privy mark and has a strong following."
Very much disagree with this. They are very slow to move! Check out the sell section, sitting there for weeks.
The problem with "We will make other sizes of silver bullion Kookaburras where demand arises." is that the PM has been EXTREMELY shifty in re-striking coins after the minted year..
IE: the ox and mouse lunar bullion were minted and distributed in a way that was very stealtH... ALMOST as thought the PM knew they would be annoying the aggregate market of there consumers so by shipping all the reminted OX to germany only the local market had excess supply and as long as these few suppliers drip feed the market there was/is no need for the price to plumment.. exactly the same as the 2009 mouse that we got locally.. IF the PM had telegraphed the restriking im sure the pblic would of been more vocal and the news would of gone viral..
But as the PM re-strikes "in the cover of night" and never disclose the fact they have done so they leave a trail of destruction behind them as people find out they have just purchased a "restrike" at secondary market prices.
- If you restrike.. tell us.. it effects us.. dont sneak them to distributors and wait for them to tell people (or not)
- Telegraph you are going to restrike so we have a fair chance to dump our originals beofre the restrikes get dumped on the market casuing heavy paper loses!
I dont even think your (now) heavily complicated mintage policy was the issue.. its the snakey stealthy method you have gone about reminting without letting the general public know.. investors NEED to have perfect information and catering to a few distributors in the secondary market will massively increase their profits.. at the expense of the aggregate investor community.. IE: redback spider, mouse, ox, kooks restruck.
Its really the theory of comparitive advantage and PM not being equitable in their allocation of product which should never of been restruck.
I suspect this parasectic realtionship will result in a dead host.. dead hosts dont buy bullion, and certainly not $109 proofs!
RE: Lunars are just buy one ounce lunar bullion... WRONG
Lunars now have the lesser mintage PRIVY version AND Lunar bullion gets issued now with a MAGIC LUNAR premium that exists due to peoples expectations that they will increase in the secondary market.. given what we know its now safe to say the lunar premiums are about as safe as Kook Mintages and Kilo Lunars from being restruck.
They seem to be selling well on ebay.
Here's the completed listings for the Dragon Privy coin.
November 01 had one sell $76 - average price mid - high 40's
Thats just the PM localised dumping policy.. i believe much like the Lunar Ox where Germany seemed to get them ALL, Australia seemed to get the lions share of the drag w/lion privy.. so locally (like the mouse was) you have VERY weak sales.. i got a roll for $600 on this forum!
But yes internationally as there was very little supply its natural they are more scarce and given they are more limited than the ACTUAL Dragons we all paid HUGE premiums for .. then i totally believe they are selling OK on ebay.. if they knew the rolls were being dumped in Australia at very cheap prices and were considered the ulgy step sister then it may be off-putting.. but seeing how europe and australian investors never converge to see what the PM mint has distributed to them we ARE ALL LEFT IN THE DARK..
How long was it until we found out about the RUSSIAN red-back spider release? It honestly looks to me as though PM was hoping we were all totally uninformed and had no-idea they got that coin (minted COUGH privately).. same thing with LOCALISED re-strikes.. it benefits a few and the rest over-pay for a item that had been locally saturated. The worst case here is if a Profit maximising distribultor takes devlier of THE batch of restrickes and drip feeds them and if PM dont announce it.. that sell will be able to slowly pass his NEWLY restuck coins off as the originals without effecting the price in a negative way.. to htis end the PM is heavily involved in giving that distributor supernomral profits off the backs of unknowing buyers who assume its the old rare coin they had no knowledge was reminted (how often is this happening on ebay with RESTRUCK KOOKS?)
Promblem is WWW dosent keep secrets and when investors find out they are angry.. and rightly so!
Just because the lunar privys do well on ebay is more a sign that some investors are not SAVVY.. we see lots of silver investors making bad decsions when they are NEWBS.. a perfectly informed investor would probably not pay over $40 for a "Lion in Drag"
I am not so sure if they need to announce when are the coins reminted and who bought them. Must they do it?
LOL.. are you joking? Obviously it is not a statutory requirement or it would of been the case already no?
They should be transparent with what they are minting.. i doubt anyone cares specifically who got the allocation but they should certainly anounce that they are embarking on a re-striking campaign...
Do you not think they should, would you rather be left in the dark?
I like to be an informed decsion maker so i can make accurate and correct decisions... if the perth mint is about to go and remint all the kooks that did not reach their limit and they are ok with this.. why not tell the public through their blog and bullion website, is it not noteworthy that the early 90's are to again be made available to the general public, even if not sold through there own site?
I believed it was coins minted in year of coin only, but that is not the case with RAM.
e.g. 2010 $1 Mob of Roos
So we can see that RAM produced 9.105m 2010 $1 MOR coins in the financial year 2011/12.
SADLY SOME SELLERS WERE (AND ARE STILL) TRYING TO SELL ROLLS OF THE 2010 MOR FOR $100 ON eBay
(based on the incorrect information shown in McDonald's 2012 edition which shows production at 3.9m. In the 2011 edition it was shown as 3.9m#.
# = designates an incomplete year).
"If the die is in good enough condition to produce coins, the RAM will keep on producing even out of year!"
or words to that effect were said to me by a person at RAM.
*Source is RAM Annual Report 2011/12.
I don't think that the above info is "out there" yet!
SULLA is back
I think its great that we have this forum. I have received PM and emails from Canada, the US and locally as people are really uptight about this Perth Mint action. In previous years the mint may have just ignored us but the power of social internet and the SS forum makes them think twice. I do think after talking to Ron today that this situation is slowly being resolved and clarified and I would encourage Ron to keep posting comments that further clarify these issues for us on SS. I hope that Ron and the PM people recognise that we are all in this together. It is in all our interests both mint and collectors to resolve these issues in an amicable way. We know there are still outstanding issues related to the larger Kooks and privy coins. Ron keep us posted on your discussions which I am sure are going on right now in this regard.
Policy on the run if ever I saw it. The Perth Mint thought they could make a dash for cash by re-minting 20+ year old coins with perhaps only a little criticism.
But they have been caught out and now flip-flop around trying to cover themselves for what they've done. Consumers can only vote with their wallet and mine is closed to anything out of the Perth Mint from now on.
And yes, I wont even buy plain bullion bars stamped 'Perth Mint' on them just because to see their name gives me a feeling of a knife in the back.
Separate names with a comma.