Perth Mint mintage policy

Discussion in 'Silver' started by Ron Currie, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. Ronnie 666

    Ronnie 666 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    105
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    ^^^ well put Holdfast

    I hope Ron does not delay his response too long as the longer this goes unresolved the worse the impact for us all. This needs to be fixed quickly so we can get on with our collecting with assurance that the rug will not be pulled for under us again. As it is there is now serious mistrust and concern. This needs to be put to bed..sooner than later.
     
  2. stackeract

    stackeract New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    284
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Canberra
    Is the case of Ox and Mouse proof coins also legally ok? For these coins they publically announced on their website that the coins are "sold out" only to restrike them later (three-coin set, kg, and typeset). Have they breached any laws by doing this?
     
  3. Austacker

    Austacker Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,870
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    The Wild West
    I am happy to buy bullion products of PM. I never really classed Kooks, Koalas etc... as numismatics anyway they are bullion coins. Sure there was a little bit of extra in a few years. However nothing really stood out ie: Normal 1oz $40 compared to year XX $150 ?

    Lunars have definitely had some collector value in them, and the ongoing saga of mintage and varieties ruined this area.

    From here PM will get Bullion business from me, and a few extras here and there for things I like. Yes I do have a Lunar Proof collection and are seriously considering selling out of this as well. While I still can ?

    Keep making as much variety as you wish, just tell us the complete picture. Also do not mislead the general public into think they are making good Investments into products that are lucky to get your purchase price back. I would say over 50% of the Retail products do not retain value. You do state collector on a lot of brochures, but there is always an associating with PM and Investments as well, which are listed in the same brochures. Can be misleading.

    Another example of a Company trying to be everything to everyone is Sony. They went into everything and forgot what they were good at. Guess what they are in serious doo doo they have now been downgraded to JUNK status. While the connection between your companies setups are separate for trading, one can still pull the other one down. PM products rated at JUNK status now we would all hate to see that.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/aus...argest-ever-loss/story-e6frgakx-1226323537269
     
  4. stackeract

    stackeract New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    284
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Canberra
    "Guess who" were selling tons of them a while ago. They had well over 100 of each year in stock. At that time I thought that might be from someone who is off-loading their collection, but now with this mintage fiasco I am not so sure anymore...
     
  5. silverstar1

    silverstar1 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    So on the COA where it says "no more than X amount of these coins will be produced by the Perth mint " what does this mean ? just in this packaging or ??
     
  6. grinners

    grinners Active Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2011
    Messages:
    1,197
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Australia

    I have yet to see their exemption to misrepresentation laws.


    (Stamping the year on the coins, setting advertised mintage limits, publication of year-end mintages, advertising coins with 'potential for value appreciation' etc. etc.).
     
  7. silverstar1

    silverstar1 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    "So on the COA where it says "no more than X amount of these coins will be produced by the Perth mint " what does this mean ? just in this packaging or ??"

    Perth mint response (hypothetically)

    "we are still trying to figure that out"
     
  8. Holdfast

    Holdfast Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    9,856
    Likes Received:
    1,126
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Australia
    For Ron Currie

    Ron

    Could you please look at the pdf document titled:

    The Australian Lunar Silver Bullion Coin (Series Two) 2008 2011
    http://www.perthmint.com.au//docume...er_Bullion_Series_Two_2008_-_2011_Current.pdf

    The Australian Lunar Gold Bullion Coin (Series Two) 2008 2011
    http://www.perthmint.com.au//docume...ld_Bullion_Series_Two_2008_-_2011_Current.pdf


    The Gold and Silver Bullion Brochures indicate the bullion coins are declared at the end of each year.
    The brochures are here:
    http://www.perthmintbullion.com/au/...ils_2013_Australian_Bullion_Coin_Program.aspx

    The pdf document on your web site for bullion mintages shows the declared mintages as unlimited.

    This is confusing people because the "unlimited" could...to some people...indicate that the unlimited bullion lunars could be re-minted, which is not the case because they are declared at the end of each year.

    So...if possible could the pdf documents for the mintages have "Declared" written in instead of Unlimited or maybe a column added that says Declared that way it would also fit in with your one kilo coins that say TBD (To Be Declared)? Or maybe Sold-Out?


    H
    [​IMG]
    Source:
     
  9. stackeract

    stackeract New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    284
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Canberra
    I can't tell, I only saw availability and stock levels online. I can try to find out, but that will take some time.
     
  10. Ronnie 666

    Ronnie 666 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    105
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    Ron told me the 2oz were not profitable to mint and were not likely to be reminted.
    I hope we hear from Ron today as my SS PM box is filling up with comments. Also lots of messages on email.
     
  11. Ronnie 666

    Ronnie 666 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    105
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    While we wait for the PM to inform us of their complete plan with regard reminting of coins in particular kookaburra's, I thought it interesting to post these international websites that discuss this current Perth Mint policy. There are also comments from collectors across the globe.

    From Asia
    http://www.goldclubasia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=58639
    From Canada
    Perth Mint Re-Mints Silver Kookaburras http://blog.jtcoins.com/tag/canada
    Others
    http://world.mintnewsblog.com/2012/10/perth-mint-explains-mintages/

    This is not an extensive search so if I missed other posts please feel free to add.
    I am certain more will pop up soon.

    For those members of SS who are also members of Bullion Stackers of North America please add your comments to our post. I am aware there are numerous comments on Bullion Stackers regarding the Perth Mint's policy. It would be interesting for our members to see these if possible.
     
  12. SilverSale

    SilverSale Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,270
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    In March 2011 Stephen Ward of the Perth Mint blog had this to say in relation to the 1oz bullion coins:

    "For investors, we offer bullion quality versions in capsules. These coins are made in much larger quantities, enabling us to keep the sales premium to a minimum. Even though Lunar bullion coins are made for investors, we do acknowledge that they attract significant collector interest in many quarters.

    1oz Lunar silver bullion coins have a maximum mintage of 300,000 each." Perth Mint Blog

    This statement is now void as there will be 500,000 Silver bullion coins.

    Then in September last year Ron Currie said this:
    "Throughout the course of the first 12-year Australian Lunar bullion coin series and also during the second 12-year series, 1oz releases have been limited by mintage: 30,000 gold and 300,000 silver. As well as investors, these mintage quotas have also attracted collectors to the series.

    To increase mintages of 1oz coins during a particularly popular year could be interpreted as opportunistic and possibly damage our credibility as a Mint." Perth Mint Blog

    Source: bullionbaron.com

    The Perth Mint continues their shenanigans!
     
  13. Ronnie 666

    Ronnie 666 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    105
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    Dear Ron

    I hope that you over the past few days have come to some decision as regards the non 1oz Kookaburra's. I refer to the reminting the 2oz, 10 oz and 1kg bullion coins of previous years. I realise this is not the only contentious issue as regards the reminting position by the Perth Mint, but its one of the major outstanding issues. As you are aware many of us have purchased these coins from the Perth Mint over the past 20 years. This investment was based not only on bullion appreciation, but also on the recognition that the Perth Mint manufactures quality products and the belief that these coins coins would in future years become scarce and gain some semi-numismatic value. These large coins unlike the 1oz kookaburra did not have a stipulated maximum mintage. However, one's expectation over the years, as in the case of the Koala bullion coins, was that once the specific year of issue had passed these coins would not be reminted. You have now confirmed this exact policy with regard the unlimited Koalas and it would seem logical to do the same with these unlimited old non-1oz (large) Kookaburras.

    I speak for many of the Perth Mint's, long time, customers in posting this question, the answer to which will certainly impact on all our decisions for future Perth Mint purchases. We are all very anxious to hear your response to this important issue.

    Ron, we all recognise that this issue of reminting has evoked significant ill feeling by buyers of coins here in Australia and internationally. It is wonderful that you unlike other large industry players are responsive to the customer and engage us in these discussions, albeit sometimes heated. When I called you last week you indicated that you would consider this particular issue of the non 1oz Kookaburras carefully and reply. In this regard we are all waiting and value your response.
     
  14. Garnet

    Garnet Active Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Good post Ronnie, the sooner we get a straight answer from the mint the better. This has just gone on for too long!
     
  15. Diablo21

    Diablo21 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2011
    Messages:
    789
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Canada
    Good letter Ronnie. Iif they do mint the old non 1 oz kooks, that would be the last straw for me. I've already stopped buying PM stuff, I'm only keeping my lunar series going and have started to sell everything else I bought from Perth Mint.

    As they say, "vote with your wallet", I'm sure my few thousand dollars a year isn't a big deal to PM but if more people feel like I do and do what I'm doing it's going to make a difference.
     
  16. stackeract

    stackeract New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    284
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Canberra
    Are there no old brochures or flyers where they say that the Kookaburra mintage will be closed off at the end of the year, just like it says for the Lunar series?
    I always automatically assumed this would be the case for Kookaburras too, but cannot remember if I have actiually read it on official material or not. Can someone who can still find these please check? We only need to find one!
     
  17. Ronnie 666

    Ronnie 666 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2011
    Messages:
    2,457
    Likes Received:
    105
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    There are multiple postings on E Bay by reputable companies quoting the non-1oz sales as final mintages. If this is not correct would there be recourse against the companies for misrepresentation by the buyers or Paypal?

    http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1992-Australia-Kookaburra-2-oz-silver-coin-Mintage-84-782-/181022902579

    Also postings on multiple websites selling large kooks and quoting old final sales as final mintages

    http://www.providentmetals.com/1995-australian-kookaburra-1-kilo-silver-coin-999-fine.html
    http://www.free-bullion-investment-guide.com/australian-silver-kookaburra-ten-ounce.html

    If these are reminted by the Perth Mint will buyers have recourse against sellers as mintages quoted were misleading ?
    We need some clarity from Ron.
     
  18. MasterID

    MasterID Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Messages:
    204
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Singapore
    Laws can change so can anything decided in the past.
     
  19. Midas 888

    Midas 888 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    The silence from the Perth Mint seems to be an ominous sign. I would have thought they would have responded by now, even if to state that they where looking into the mintages issue and would post a definitive policy in the near future which is surely what needs to be done. The present ad-hoc way they are dealing with the issue presently has not been professional in any way and seems to be policy formulated on the run. For me personally, i have now adopted the policy to treat Perth Mint coins as bullion only and of no future or present numismatic potential and my purchases are made with this foremost in my mind. I will certainly not be paying premiums for these coins any more and therefore will suffer no future losses irrespective of what the Perth Mint Does.
     
  20. Holdfast

    Holdfast Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    9,856
    Likes Received:
    1,126
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Australia
    Guys, here's a list of the Perth Mint's Kookaburra Silver bullion coins that are part of the un-limited mintage.

    I've provided this precis version so you can quickly see which coins are affected by Perth's mintage policy. (The 1 oz coin isn't included, only unlimited mintage coins)

    If Perth do decide to restrike any of these coins, the numismatic premium that the coins have aquired over the past 20 years could be eroded away due to Perth's mintage policy.

    I've also included a graph of the quantity of each bullion coin sold and also the total number of troy ounces sold. (Hopefully the graphs may assist Ron Currie and the other guys at Perth)

    There's two sets of figures, one is for the 1 kilo, 10 oz and 2 oz Kook for the period 1992 - 2011; the other is 1992 - 2009.

    The reason, I've listed the two time periods is due to the 2 oz Kookaburra not being minted after 2009.

    Please distribute and use the graphs freely, there's no copyrigh but please check the figures and as always, DYODD

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The information used to produce these graphs was obtained from The Perth Mints -pdf mintage page.
    http://www.perthmint.com.au//docume...r_Bullion_Coin_Series_1990_-_2011_Current.pdf
     

Share This Page