Perth Mint mintage policy

Discussion in 'Silver' started by Ron Currie, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. stackeract

    stackeract New Member

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    Perth Mint reminds me of this South Park episode: Whatever, I can do what I want!

    But in the end it is a simple choice: Declare your mintages or lose most of your customers.
     
  2. Ron Currie

    Ron Currie New Member

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    We are looking at all numismatic products dating back to 1987 that are not sold out. Where appropriate we will declare the mintage of each coin or set, formally signalling that no more will ever be manufactured. Please bear with us during the next few months as we complete this process. In the meantime, it is extremely unlikely that we would release older numismatic issues. Should the need arise, the most likely course of action would be to re-date the coin, as we did for the Australian Kookaburra 20th Edition Silver Coin Set.
     
  3. AndyRoo68

    AndyRoo68 Member Silver Stacker

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    Why? I just don't get why you see a need to do this. Wouldn't it be better for everyone to produce new coin series for us buyers rather than try to make a quick buck trawling previous issues - is the Perth Mint in such serious financial difficulty that they have do this, it benefits no-one except the PM.
     
  4. MasterID

    MasterID Member

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    Sure way to increase sales/profit is to sell something that sure sells. Beats coming up with a design that may or may not sell.

    I think.
     
  5. Ronnie 666

    Ronnie 666 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I have written to Bron, Ron and Ed Harbuz expressing my concern and dismay with the new proposals of the Perth Mint in particular the destruction of coins sold back to the PM and thereby these are not made available to the public. I have also mentioned the reminting issues. I received initially superficial placatory responses and more recently no response. As one of the PM earliest and strongest advocate and supporter, I can now only with significant disappointment vote with my feet and walk away. When enough members adopt a similar attitude then maybe the PM will rethink its position and consider its customers. As a local West Australian member this is very disappointing.
     
  6. steve.rsa

    steve.rsa Member Silver Stacker

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    well, to me those figures certainly point to an overly optimistic maximum mintage limit in the first place.

    I may be stepping on a few toes here, but why do the bullion series coins even have a mintage limit? They distract people from the purely numismatic/collectable issues....(which should have a far lower mintage limit IMO - see the NZ Hobbit silver set - 1000 worldwide)
     
  7. longtime silver believer

    longtime silver believer New Member

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    Perth mint makes as many coins as they can sell...........plain and simple.....you would to if you could get away with charging super premiums.:)
     
  8. Holdfast

    Holdfast Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    those figures certainly point to an overly optimistic maximum mintage limit in the first place.

    Plus my rave - not directed at you steve.rsa :)


    The coins have a mintage limit because when Perth apply to Treasury they ask for a mintage limit on those coins that they know will be sort after and it keeps collectors happy.

    The 2012 1oz Kookaburra had a limited minatge of 500,000 coins which sold-out.
    The 2013 1oz Kookaburra has a limited mintage of 1,000,000 coins.

    Many collectors have had second thoughts about buying the 2012 and 2013 kooks due to the high mintage and have looked at other un-limited coin nomeclature.

    By ensuring continuity of a mintage for certain bullion products like the lunars (mintage 300,000) Perth has a market willing to buy the coins because, in most cases the 1oz coins become collector items and also ensure that previous years have collector following.


    Unlimited mintages like the Koala 1oz silver coin are part of Perth's true-core bullion coins that are churned out in bulk, last figures for the 2011, 1oz silver Koala was about 910,480.

    By keeping collectors interested in limited mintage bullion coins, like the Lunars and Kooks, Perth realise that they are keeping their collector base happy and at the same time bringing more and more collectors into the field of numismatics.
    Perth has a charter by the Western Australian Government to expand interest in international markets so that Australian Industry benefits from selling Australian precious metal.

    As we have seen, if Perth increase the mintage limit of the 1oz lunars and Kooks they may as well do what you said steve because a large limited mintage that doesn't sell-out leaves the investor and collector asking them self....should I buy or not or when will Perth mint more? In 5, 10, 20 years time).

    That's exactly what has happened with the 2013 Kookaburra. Many potential buyers have been waiting and hoping to here news from Perth if the coins are likely to sell-out or not; if it gets close there could be a mad dash but some of us have thrown the towel in; we changed our strategy.

    My strategy is to spend my money on the limited mintage 1 oz silver Lunars, followed by 1/2 oz and the 2 oz and then the larger coins, especially the 5oz which often gets left off the radar (But only if the market likes the design).


    Anyway, I know I went a bit off-track in this post but yeah - high limited mintages just don't work for Perth; it destroys confidence and leaves the market hanging in mid-air if it doesn't sell-out.

    Last of all, low limited mintages with excellent designs makes for happy collectors because they make a profit which draws more collectors into buying coins.

    Perth want to sell more metal but they forget about collectors; it's not rocket science for bullion products that have numismatic potential. A secondary market premium will often get people buying un-limited mintages in the same series, ie the dragons.

    Perth have to work-out their strategy of selling metal and retaining interest from us; they can do it but they need us to tell them what we want and why.

    I want Perth to make a huge profit after all they are an Aussie company, but I also want them to know that their focus should be about strengthening their collector base and provide additional strong policy to their distributors and would be wholesalers.

    Perth also have to consider their allocated and un-allocated metal.

    It's quite easy for would be clients to say....well your bullion and collector policy looks poor, maybe there's difficulties with management.

    Would you buy allocated or un-allocated metal with a company, who can't even get simple policy statements together for mintages of numi and bullion coins?

    See, it's a big issue with lots of webs; Perth are doing the dusting but we can help by showing them where the spiders are living.



    H
     
  9. Scope

    Scope New Member

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    It doesn't make any sense to buy Perth Mint numismatics unless it is nearly reaching its max mintage because if there is no imterest, then a collector coin would stay around its issue price, more or less, but if there is any interest, PM has the right to go back to previous years and mint more, thereby eroding any gains in value the coin may have had.
     
  10. trew

    trew Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Why not simply release one simple, clear statement that no past numismatic coins will ever be reminted ?

    Not only is it quick and simple, but it is also the right thing to do by your customers.
     
  11. Matthew 26:14

    Matthew 26:14 New Member

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    Man, imagine if they Perth Mint starting pumping out numismatic coins from 1987 ? HA!

    Well I've bought a couple of k's worth of Perth Mint coins per year but I havent bought any in 2012 and wont be from now on.

    When I think of all the possible investments in the world, Perth Mint's collectable coins are but one of a million possible investments.

    Here's a summary of why I dont buy Perth Mint collectables anymore:

    1. The decision to remint unfulfilled mintage quotas from years ago (read here 22 year old kookaburras);

    2. The introduction of "privy" editions for the 1oz Lunars which is just a trick to try and expand the 300k limit by another 200k;

    3. The minor modification of coins that have reached their max mintage and are highly sought after (read here Redback "Russian" version);

    4. The duding of Australian businesses when damn near all of the 2012 1oz Dragons were shipped to American and European dealers who then could charge as they pleased for the coins.
     
  12. zurnaik

    zurnaik Member

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    This smells of a high level management decision. When presented with the options the high level management just does not want to let go of the potential for profits. They do not understand the 2nd hand market nor the purpose of a mint.

    As demonstrated by Holdfast, for years no one bought the Perth Mint coins and they hardly ever hit their mintage, even in the celebrated Lunars. I am not a collector but it seems a kick in the teeth to numismatists, who have for years been loyal fans and customers of the Perth Mint, that coins from a decade ago could be re-minted because of sudden demand locally or foreign. It is not intuitive that a coin marked 1995 would be struck in 2013. Part of the 'charm' of the older coin are things like the manufacturing process of the time, the history of the coin, the condition of the coin given its age, the 'foresight' (or luck) of the collector who held on to it in pristine condition, the fact that it has survived rather than being melted down etc.

    Regarding Ronnie 666 and PM melting coins, well as I said earlier - for years many coins have been unpopular. They've often ended up in the hands of bullion dealers (I've seen proof PM coloured 1oz coins at bullion dealers for standard bullion pricing) who, unable to move them, have sent them back to the mint for melting. I believe it is pretty standard policy of any mint to melt any metal that comes in the door. They are in the business of minting; they are not a second hand dealer. The reason you buy directly from a mint is that the coins are new strikes from new blanks with confidence of correct purity and weight. The mint charges a premium for this service and turns over large volumes of metal to make a profit. That is a mints perogative! Now we hear that there is a new 'perogative' for a mint to go back and re-strike a few thousand coins from 1995 just because it never hit the so-called maximum mintage and interest remains. In other words a mint is going to, or at least reserving the right to, direct its manufacturing in reaction to or speculation of the 2nd hand numismatic market.

    That's the way the numismatics go, they either end up being melted down or highly sought after. PM wants to have its hands in all the pots, they will happily melt down the crap coins for you (giving you a terrible melt price) then make that metal into re-manufactured popular old coin (charging you a huge premium for that coin.)
     
  13. Ronnie 666

    Ronnie 666 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    zurnaik I have been a regular customer of the PM for many years now and regularly came into the PM to buy any old coins sold back to the mint. You are right they pay a pathetic smelt value for coins and you buy it back from them at current prices. We are talking about PM coins not other mints. The PM clears 20-30%% profit at least without any work. That is a good business for anyone. For example a 1oz kook is sold to the mint for currently $30 and you buy it back for $40. (current prices PM sales and buy back , 1 ounce Ag $42.16(sell) $30.62 (buy). The ability for collectors to buy single old coins popular or not increases interest and supports our local Perth collectors.

    I was told by several PM staff the same nonsense that they are not a second hand dealer. That is funny they have a second hand dealers licence pinned on their wall and secondly all their staff do all day long is buy second hand gold and silver coins, and jewellery. I was told they don't have time to sell these coins to us collectors. We are the same people who buy their new coins and support them by recommending them to our mates. Most days this past year when I was at the PM (twice or three times a week) the staff outnumbered the customers. Obviously there were busy days with new coin releases and when spot prices suddenly increased. But most times that was not the case.

    Clearly the PM produces wonderful products on that we all agree. I am particularly proud that the PM is world renowned and is located in my home city and that I can go up the road any day and buy directly from them. These issues of reminting and the attitude that we couldn't be bothered with our good customers is clearly a serious management issue. As a government organisation this sort of attitude is pervasive. Tried the local public hospital recently ?
    It would clearly not happen in a company where sales directly supported salaries as is the case in most private companies. I am just disappointed that poor management is damaging what was a fantastic name brand. This has clearly impacted my purchase habbits and those of several Perth based SS members
     
  14. mtforpar

    mtforpar Member

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    Thanks again for posting and sharing the policy. This statement above I find to be very arrogant and dismissive of customer concerns. Minting coins years later with previous dates on them is highly unethical and flies in the face of long standing basic rules of numismatic tradition. From what I can see you are doing nothing here except announcing in advance your right to be unethical and proclaiming a limit on the unethical behavior. How is one supposed to trust someone who promises to do only so much unethical behavior and no more?
     
  15. grinners

    grinners Active Member Silver Stacker

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    If I had a large amount of old year kooks and their value was instantly halved by the mint, I would be going straight to a small claims tribunal.
     
  16. Jislizard

    Jislizard Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I don't think you would get far, it appears to be their stated policy and I am sure they will tell you they don't fix the price on the secondry market.

    If I had a large amount of old year kooks and their value was instantly halved by the mint, I would be going straight to a different Mint to buy future coins.
     
  17. stackeract

    stackeract New Member

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    Perth Mint wants to make as much profit as possible and I completely agree that this is the right thing to do for the Mint.

    Here are two strategies for maximising profit:

    1. Some old Perth Mint coins sell for a lot of money in the secondary market. Therefore a lot of people will buy the new Perth Mint coins in the hope to make a lot of profit once they are old coins. The higher the profit on old coins, the more new coins will be sold, the more profit the Mint makes.

    2. Some old Perth Mint coins sell for a lot of money in the secondary market. Therefore the Mint decides to remint these coins and to sell them for the same price as new Perth Mint coins. A lot of people will buy the old coins in addition to the new coins and the Mint will make even more profit, because on top of the large number of new coins they will also sell lots of old coins.

    Some clever Perth Mint marketing gurus seem to think that strategy 2 is better, but they forgot two minor things:
    Firstly, if the Mint decides to remint old coins and to sell them for the same price as new Perth Mint coins, then the price of these old coins in the secondary market will drop to that of new coins. But if there is no profit to be made with old coins, people will not buy the new coins anymore.
    Secondly, those people who will most likely suffer most from the drop in secondary market vaue of old coins are long time loyal customers of the mint. Upsetting and losing these customers will surely not lead to any increased profits either.
     
  18. Jislizard

    Jislizard Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Perth Mint doesn't make any money on the secondry market so what do they care?

    If people sell Perth Mint products, like the Old Kooks, on the secondry market the Perth Mint does not get a cut of the action.

    However they do get a cut of the action if they sell the same Old Kook themself, by reminting it.

    As it has been demonstrated, if they remint coins, the coins will be bought, not by the old customers, but by new customers.

    They can produce hundreds of issues each year in the hopes that they will stumble on a new Redback and they will be able to replace their old customers with new ones who complain less.

    I have never speculated on the old coins so I am not directly affected by the reminting, I never bought any of the older ones on the secondry market.

    I agree that that instead of reviewing each coin from 87 onwards they should just say enough! and promise not to remint any more. They may make a quick buck but at what cost? They appear to think they have us over a barrell and that we can't do anything about it but we are making silver purchases every day. We think about each purchase beforehand, we don't just automatically buy from the Perth Mint because it happens to be closest.
     
  19. MasterID

    MasterID Member

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    Potentially, as the number of new-rich gets larger, the new customers will out-grow the old customers. It will probably take another 20+ years for this group of new customers to experience this re-mint cycle (if history repeats).
     
  20. Ronnie 666

    Ronnie 666 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    I am not sure who has who over a barrel. Since I have stopped buying PM products I have found great products for other mints. My feeling is to walk away and once the word is out that new coins will attract no future premium, watch sales crash. Once trust has gone it is impossible to regain. This is a shortsighted money grab. When you piss off your customers watch out !!
     

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