Perth Mint mintage policy

Discussion in 'Silver' started by Ron Currie, Nov 7, 2012.

  1. selfcentered

    selfcentered New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Brisbane
    Silversale, you also tried to purchase a number of proof dragons from me for we'll under retail trying to spins some BS story because I was new to the forum at the time. You have no ethics, don't be a fool.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    If this is true then shame on you silversale, that is terrible.
     
  3. SilverSale

    SilverSale Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,268
    Likes Received:
    165
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    I sold dragons at a price the market was happy to pay at the time. Nothing wrong with that - smart business. What I didn't do was mint an extra 200,000 coins above a set 300,000 mintage...

    I had no recollection of what you were talking about selfcentered so I had a look back through my pm's. All I can find is a pm asking to buy your dragon proofs in bulk at a set price.

    Someone getting their knickers in a knot? Please tell me you are not making up porkies selfcentred.

    How about we keep the topic on track & not attempt to make up allegations.
     
  4. dccpa

    dccpa Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    USA
    Considering the Chinese mints change quantity limits during a mintage year, I would not consider them any better than the PM. Add in the quantity of fake Chinese Pandas and you still have to give the edge to the PM. With the massive quantities of Pandas being minted, the future resale value of the newer coins is being diminished. And in the US, the initial premium on the Pandas is higher than the Lunars.

    I have heard the argument of look at the population differentials. But if the Chinese were buying mass quantities of Pandas, they would have started making millions of them immediately when the silver ownership restrictions were lifted.

    Even this pro Panda article indicates that Lunars are better investments.

    http://www.coinweek.com/bullion-rep...-pandas-as-popular-as-american-silver-eagles/

    And looking at prior ebay sales, the 2013 snake is outperforming the 2012 Panda, even though the Panda has been out much longer.

    It makes sense that the limited mintage older Pandas would appreciate well. But the multi-million mintage newer Pandas are a much riskier investment. My lower mintage 2010 Pandas are only selling for $40-44 on ebay. Contrast that to $60 for the 2010 silver lunar tiger.

    2011 Panda - $36-45 2011 Rabbit - $45-50

    My personal opinion is that quantity of fake Pandas is hurting the resale value. Many SS members have trained themselves to spot fake Pandas, but most casual collectors are not going to go to that trouble.
     
  5. Catseye

    Catseye New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2012
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Changing mid-year mintage #'s and reminting 20 years later are 2 different issues.
    Many years the MCC's were actually produced in smaller than originally stated mintages & they have yet to go back and start "printing" more. :rolleyes:
    There is something fundamentally wrong in Pert Mint's decision making process and unless that changes you can expect more customer alienating moves in the future.
     
  6. Catseye

    Catseye New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2012
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
     
  7. Catseye

    Catseye New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2012
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Defend their action by pointing a finger elsewhere if you like, the fact still remains.
    There is something fundamentally wrong in Pert Mint's decision making process and unless that changes you can expect more customer alienating moves in the future.
     
  8. Jislizard

    Jislizard Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    7,821
    Likes Received:
    599
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Australia

    Good point!

    Just cross off Perth Mint and the Mints in China.

    Plenty more suppliers of silver out there.
     
  9. SilverSale

    SilverSale Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,268
    Likes Received:
    165
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    Amen.
     
  10. dccpa

    dccpa Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2010
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    USA
    I must have missed the post where someone defended the PM.

    The PM deserves the backlash for what they did. But the PM back minting older kooks does not make a 8 million mintage 2012 Panda a better investment than a 300k mintage 2012 Kookaburra.
     
  11. silverstar1

    silverstar1 New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    I think you may have missed my point , I am not saying whether current issue pandas or Perth coins are a better investment that is a choice individuals will have to make for themselves, I dont personally think either is a great investment, although both well struck coins.
    My point to give a simple example is if the Chinese mints reminted say the 2000 mirrored ring, 1995 microdate , 1999 serif1 ect. and sold them at current panda prices, it would cause serious outrage as those coins are rare and command a very high premium. In my opinion they would not do such a thing even though it would be very profitable to for them.

    As far as fakes go , other than a few dates there is really much less fakes than many might think and any I have seen are very easy to tell. I am not trying to defend Chinese coins though as I dont really care what others intend to buy with their hard earned money.
     
  12. selfcentered

    selfcentered New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Brisbane
    You offered $1100 for 11 proof dragons, at the time the market was asking about $2000. I asked if it was a joke and you responded with


    Ooh and your price was including postage... So you offered about 50% value to a new member....

    I'm no liar. I actually have integrity.

    Nice try
     
  13. SilverSale

    SilverSale Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,268
    Likes Received:
    165
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    You wanted to sell proof dragons in bulk & I offered you a bulk price. Nothing sinister.. don't make up stories.

    Surprised I offered you that much for them, lol.

    In today's market I would offer even less. :)
     
  14. Holdfast

    Holdfast Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    9,819
    Likes Received:
    1,105
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Australia
    Guys, I've condensed a few of Perth's mintage pdf documents (Bullion Platinum and Gold) so you can quickly see the "Limited-Mintage" vs actual sales.

    The Numismatic mintage pdfs also have a huge quantity of coins that didn't reach their mintage limit but it's too much work for me to condense. ;)

    Numismatic collector coins
    http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f199/HoldfastOrganicGardening/GoldBullionKangaroo_zps6cd6fb47.jpg

    If you have written / documented proof that some of these coins have closed mintages could you please let the forum know.

    Gold
    [​IMG]


    Platinum
    [​IMG]


    Edit
    Updated images.
     
  15. Ron Currie

    Ron Currie New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    Posted on The Perth Mint blogs today: http://blog.perthmint.com.au/2012/11/20/perth-mint-announces-new-mintage-policy/

    Perth Mint Announces New Mintage Policy

    The new Perth Mint Mintage Policy has been finalised.

    It addresses issues and questions raised on our blogs and in other coin forums about some Perth Mint practices.

    If you are one of those who contributed, thanks for your input. The opportunity to review our practices and provide clarity to collectors and investors is timely.

    Download the Mintage policy from our collector site - http://www.perthmint.com.au/mintage_policy.aspx

    Download the Mintage policy from our bullion site - - http://www.perthmintbullion.com/au/Our-Bullion-Products/Mintage-Policy.aspx

    Here are the key points that will be of most interest.

    Maximum Mintage

    Every limited issue coin will have its Maximum Mintage clearly stated upfront. A Maximum Mintage is the total number of pieces we will strike for release without exception.

    The Maximum Mintage will be announced in advertising and promotional materials, on our web platforms, and (for collectable issues) in accompanying
    Certificates of Authenticity.

    Packaging Variation Issue Limit

    We will continue to release some coins in packaging variations - ie individually, in a set, or as part of a collection. As stressed above, however, Maximum Mintages will not be exceeded.

    In such a scenario, we will apply an Issue Limit to each packaging variation. Both the Issue Limit and the Maximum Mintage of the coin or coins concerned will be clearly stated in promotional materials and the Certificate.

    Bullion Manufacturing

    Some commenters have discussed what they refer to as "re-strikes", a case in point being the 1992 Australian Kookaburra 1oz silver bullion coin which has become something of a cause clbre.

    It is not. It simply demonstrates the Mint's prerogative to mint bullion and numismatic coins to their Maximum Mintage over time while interest remains. (The exception being the Australian Lunar I Series, which was permanently cut-off in 2007 and its mintage Declared.)

    On a related point, we cannot change the year-date on any coin without submitting it as a design change to Australian Federal Treasury. If we were to do so, it would be deemed a new and separate coin issue.

    Specimen Coins

    Although we thought it was based on sound reasons, the previous decision to describe packaged bullion coins as specimen quality was inappropriate.
    This practice is amended and our definition of specimen quality now relates exclusively to bullion-like strikes featuring one or more numismatic treatments.

    Policy Implementation

    The new Mintage Policy is being implemented immediately. As I said in my previous post, however, because we work in advance there are some products now awaiting release that may not fully adhere to its principles.

    As usual, we'd value your feedback. Please leave comments or questions and I'll be delighted to respond should further explanations be required.
     
  16. digoxin

    digoxin Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Messages:
    554
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Perth Mint deserves lots of kudos for responding to its customers concerns in such a swift manner. Looks like a fair policy.

    Just to clarify

    1. Lunar Series 1 bullion coins have reach declared mintage so cannot be expanded further

    2. Lunar Series 2 bullion coins that have declared mintage cannot be reminted further with the exception of the 1kg silver bullion coins

    3. The Lunar Series Silver proofs have not reached maximum mintage limits and thus further coins can be produced in alternate packaging(eg Silver series 2 - 1 oz coins)
     
  17. Matthew 26:14

    Matthew 26:14 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,354
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Victoria
    I wont make a long reply to everything that's wrong with the Perth Mint's so called "mintage limits" but perhaps the one thats the greatest concern is below.

    Quote: "It simply demonstrates the Mint's prerogative to mint bullion and numismatic coins to their Maximum Mintage over time while interest remains. "

    This line really means bugger all has changed.

    Why would anyone buy a Perth Mint numismatic or semi-numismatic coin struck at anytime when its mintage has never been reached?

    eg. Coin X was struck in 1990 and sold for $30. 1,500 were made with a maximum mintage of 5,000. And say today that coin now sells for $500. The Perth Mint could roll along today, and strike a further 3,500 coins pushing the current market price of $500 down to....well....probably $100 in reality.

    So, when the Perth Mint sends me their latest brochure, I know that if I happen to buy one of their coins, they could still choose to mint it in 2030 for example if its mintage (usually 5,000) is not reached.

    No-way is that a sound investment for me to make.

    How would it be if the RAM decided it could strike a few million 1930 pennies and sell them off ?!?!? How do you think that would sit hey?!?!
     
  18. SilverSale

    SilverSale Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,268
    Likes Received:
    165
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Australia
    Agreed Matthew.

    ...and surprise surprise, no comment on their over-minting of lunar 1oz coins.

    "Let's make an additional 200,000 lunar 1oz coins more than we said we would.. perhaps change the design in the tiniest way possible and call it a privy! Imagine the additional profits we can generate by screwing over customers!"
     
  19. Matthew 26:14

    Matthew 26:14 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2010
    Messages:
    3,354
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Victoria
    And what's this stupidity in not calling the freshly minted kookaburra's from the 90's etc restrikes ? The 1915 gold rooster is still struck today in Europe and is known as a restrike. And the 1680 Maria Teresa has been restruck up until the present day. I'm thinking the Kooks are restrikes !
     
  20. Catseye

    Catseye New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2012
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Perth has taken what was a jewel of numismatic excellence and turned it into just another exploitive PM company riding the wave of corporate greed on the backs of it's customers.
    It makes me sick to see them take this path this late in the game and demean their name and product reputation.
    Perth Mint is dead, long live Perth Mint!
     

Share This Page