Discussion in 'General Precious Metals Discussion' started by nighttrader, Jul 9, 2019.
Me too, they have/had the best collection.
I have moved this thread to General Precious Metal Discussion and sticky-ed it as I feel this topic is important.
If this is really the case, then expect a price hike (in the name of GST) at other bullion dealers as well. . . . .I suppose!
Firstly i hope the boys are ok and come out of this somehow. Meet them at a meet up once and have bought off them a few times over the last 5 years. i felt a top notch company. I hope nobody loses a livelyhood out of this.
It is very frustrating as i'd saved up for a while to make a purchase as they had a coin I wanted and couldn't find anywhere else. Went to pull the trigger and no coins had to view this thread to realise they were in trouble.
I wonder what WA will be left with in terms of bullion dealers now.
It seems that the squeeze is on from the top to the bottom,that suggests to me that prices are going higher
Supply and demand
The Book of Proverbs Chapter 22 verse 9
He who has a generous eye will be blessed,for he gives of his bread to the poor
Sorry to hear you are going through this. It has been a while since I have looked into this in Australia but going back to basics, if a liquidator is appointed then the Company is already deemed insolvent. It can't trade and it can't take on new creditors. That is not to say that the relevant insolvency legislation can't empower a liquidator to continue doing business if to do so would, in the opinion of the liquidator, ultimately increase the return to the unsecured creditors. But if the liquidator chooses to do this any new creditors taken on by the liquidators rank above the unsecured creditors, which means they are protected. So the liquidator can choose to send you the coins (which would amount to running the business) or return the money. As Oddjob (who is often full of good advice) and others said the most important thing is that you contact the liquidator. Make sure it is in writing. They will be working the mess out and I am sure you will be fine. So your timing definitely COULD have been worse... you could have made the transaction the day before the appointment. Good luck, I think it is just a waiting game.
Question: if you have a safety deposit box or allocated, if you say you want to be noted as a creditor can that be taken as you agreeing that you are part of the creditor pool and do not have valid ownership of the metal. For example, if the business was leasing a car, or renting a building, would the car leasing company who clearly owns the car, or the landlord, ask a liquidator to be noted as a creditor?
I certainly think anyone should submit documents proving that they have paid for and own any metal stored, but should they ask to be noted as a creditor if the liquidator hasn't acknowledged their ownership ASAP - they may just be overloaded?
That is a good point. If you have a safety deposit box or allocated gold it's not a good idea to say you are a secured creditor in respect of this. But I wouldn't worry if you have already said this, the liquidator will know what you mean. You can't accidently convert yourself into a Creditor if, in law, you are something else. The relationship between the liquidator and those with safety deposits and allocated gold is still contractual. The insolvency process in Australia does not result in the automatic termination of contracts. The contract in place with respect to the safety deposit box will be important, because most well drafted contracts, contain provisions as to what happens if an insolvency event occurs. I have never read one of these contracts specifically, but I would expect it to say that upon an insolvency event the contract terminates and the subject matter is returned to its owner. I don't understand the exact contractural arrangement for allocated gold, but this will also be determined by the contracts, and in particular, whether ownership of the gold was effectively transferred at the outset of the arrangement. Hopefully the allocation contracts can't be construed as some form of credit or security arrangement. I would be interested to see them if anyone has them.
Today I doubt many businesses enjoy the consistent luxury of 30% and it depends on volume of sales but I do agree its a starting point. Unfortunately we have an over supply of nearly everything manufactured and there is always someone willing to do it cheaper.
Not very happy, Perth Bullion was my number one dealer. It will be very interesting to see how all of this will play out. And would be nice to know the exact reason why they went under.
Thanks, I copied the details of my last purchase and sent them through to RSM. Interestingly, a friend got through to Perth Bullion yesterday by phone & they told him that they're processing undelivered orders & basically not to worry. I told him to worry much & follow the liquidators rec. process.
Good questions and comments. The status of coins / bullion bought and paid for may well be different from coins / bullion held in a safety deposit box or allocated / unallocated a/c. That is, if the safety deposit boxes, allocated holdings were held on "trust" (by Perth Bullion) on behalf of each purchaser / safety deposit box holder, then such assets should be legally out of reach (to me knowledge) of the liquidator and have to be handed over to the rightful owners. Unallocated maybe a different matter as that's a portion of a pool and is usually only sellable back to the company, but may also be on trust..
For those with PM's stored by Perth Bullion either safety deposit box or allocated / unallocated, look at the contracts / service agreements you have with them and see if the doc's talk about the purchasers assets being held in a trust or not.
If RSM is taking time to respond, there's no harm in wanting to be known as a creditor whilst you await determination of your position re "were my assets held in trust?". You can always withdraw your name if you get your assets.
Yep, RSM like all companies who do this type of work, are flat out in the first few days / week getting their hands around the business as they have specific time frames under law to comply with thus they'll work to secure the company and it's assets first before deciding who gets what etc...it may take some time.
The easier you make it for them re your paperwork (personal details, items (listed individually, serial numbers etc) held by Perth Bullion, when bought, how paid for, receipts / emails, contracts for deposit boxes and may help them ascertain your position sooner than later.
That's nice to hear, but the directors / employees of Perth Bullion aren't running the company, RSM is now, thus your advice to deal with RSM and their directions is spot on.
PM paid for but not shipped means the buyer is now a creditor.
Unallocated means you are a creditor.
Allocated means you are a creditor.
Safety boxes means you will get everything back.
If you are a creditor you will get % back. There will be a ranking with very different percentage back between secured and various unsecured, presume allocated will rank with secured creditors, but everything will be classified as unsecured creditor.
Only people who are guaranteed everything are safety boxes. Everything else you are creditor with different ranking and you will have to wait in line to get your percentage.
If you have undelivered orders.. and paid for by credit card, talk to your credit card company and start the FREE SERVICE offered by credit companies to do a CHARGEBACK.
Sucks if you direct debited or paid by cash
How much % is that?
% anything between FML to nothing.
Depends how much it owes and if you are secured or an unsecured creditor.
Liquidation occurs because it is beyond insolvent.
Is there a difference to receiving goods/refund for orders placed pre appointment and post appointment?
Good question. Pre appointment I'd say you would an unsecured creditor. Post appointment, that's a tricky one as a liquidator has various legal and financial obligations once they become a liquidator (note: I'm not across the legal detail, just the broad brushstrokes given past experience), so worth asking them why payment was taken if paid after their appointment etc.
Yep, agreed re payment by credit card as law is on your side if the product purchased is not rec'd. Bank has to credit you and push a debit to the company. Call your bank, fill out a stat dec, send bank with doc's and wait a week or two for refund...has been my experience.
Allocated holdings if held in a separate legal trust, the same as safety deposit holders (if also held held in trust under law) should see owners of those PM's get their PM's as legal title can be proven...but that depends on whether the allocated scheme (and unallocated) assets were held in trust (in your name) outside the legal entity of the company or the company held the assets in their name...that's a big legal difference. If not, then all will probably be unsecured creditors and will wait sometime to see any if anything from a distribution of monies from the recoveries made / assets sold in line with Ipv6Ready comment on same.
This topic has been covered in SS in recent months, thus the outcome of this and details of the programs will answer many of the questions SS members have raised re allocated / unallocated programs.
Note: Not all safety deposit boxes are held in trust in your name. Aust banks in the main treat safety deposit boxes (and contents) as their assets, no separate trust provisions, thus if a bank fell over, your items could be seized by a receiver / liquidator.
Separate names with a comma.