Our Daily Bread a.k.a. MCC Fix (Random Thoughts, Updates, Advice, Etc)

Discussion in 'Modern Chinese Coins & Medallions' started by KeepOnTrying!, May 25, 2015.

  1. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    I don't see any down side at all to the creation of the new ("virtually") air tight PCGS holders. They also have a number of advanced security features as well. I am skeptical about many claims but not about the new PCGS slab....there's just way, way, way too much at risk for PCGS to claim it is made with certain features that it actually doesn't have. Therefore, there's no good reason for me to not trust that the new slab is virtually air tight. Logic and reason tells me that it would have to be....PCGS is not suicidal.


    Also, please provide me a link to the alleged 5-year guarantee for the Intercept bags? You brought it into the conversation and so you should have knowledge of exactly what that guarantee says or where it's text can be found online. My guess is that it's a guarantee that is so vague and open to interpretation that it actually guarantees little. But I am willing to admit that I have assumed wrongly if it turns out that the alleged 5-year guarantee is very specific and actually guarantees against any claim of degradation of contents inside the bag.

    Thanks for providing that info.


    As to experimenting with coins and storage products, I believe it was SilverPete who had done some environmental exposure experiments with fresh silver Maple Leafs.



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  2. barsenault

    barsenault Well-Known Member

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    yeah, I think the recent video that PGCS did on their water tite and air tite slab was very impressive. I actually called NGC and told them they better follow suit or they will lose some customers. I won't make the jump, as I like the NGC holders better. Plus, to my knowledge they have quite an expansive understanding of the Chinese medals/coins market...more so than PGCS. This is just what I've been told from folks in China. Whether true or not, I don't know. I hope NGC figures out a way to 'mimic,' what PGCS has done with their holder. Fingers crossed. :) That is a step in a very positive direction
     
  3. Stark

    Stark Active Member Silver Stacker

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    I'm not against new slabs or anything. I was always and still am fond of new changes, especially the ones that bring something good to the people, etc. Well or only to those one. :)
    However, since I'm by nature probably more to the sceptical personality I have some doubts about this as well. It's true that maybe big or old company wouldn't want to afford potential loose of the reputation, but the same can be said for the new company as no one wants to start a new business and "fail" it ("bad advertisement"), unless of course there are some "strange" motives behind it. Or vice versa. Big companies can care less for their customers.

    Until somebody say that they will return you back the money for "damaged" coin or medal I wouldn't put my bet on them it's 100% sure.
    Will somebody return you money if your slab "falls" into the water and it proves out that is not air-tight (because of some hardly visible damages during the production, etc.).

    Warranty is probably not the right word. On the Coin Armour products there is text "Expected Corrosion Protection Term: 5 Years", e.g.:
    http://shop.coinarmour.com/3-1-4-x-4-Coin-Storage-Bags-Click-Image-for-Product-Detail-001.htm

    There are some studies and explanations available on the site as well, e.g.:
    What is corrosion

    Laboratorical tests of Intercept

    If they last more or less than normal bags I dunno. I cannot tell or judge now because I have bags for maybe 1 year. Studies can be bought, or if not bought wrong. There are cases of Nobel prize winners that made some of their studies ("accidentally" or not) totally wrong.

    I don't believe that single layer of protection is enough. I like Coin Armour bags because compared to the "classical" zipper bags they look nicer, "zipper" seems of better quality. I used few bags for presents I gave to the people.

    I would like that my stuff is preserved in the condition I bought. But I'm not sure if this is even possible. Most of the things just cannot survive against the time.

    http://www.pcgs.com/faq/

    This is from old FAQ. I guess they will soon update it accordingly. :)

    http://www.usgoldexpert.com/articles/the-10-greatest-myths-of-slabbed-coins/

    If PCGS managed to "force" also other grading companies to do more in this field this is already a good result.

    I agree with barsenault and like NGC slabs more than the ones from PCGS. But if PCGS makes some guarantees for their protection and NGC doesn't follow then I would rather choose PCGS graded coins and medals.

    Btw, in case if smbdy is interested to read similar discussion from few years ago:
    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/why-cant-a-slab-be-100-airtight-and-watertight.184483/page-3

    This was posted 3 years ago. 8 years ago similar attempt was already tried.

    http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8158110
     
  4. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    Hey Stark,

    1) a new start-up company generally has far, far, far less at stake than a reputable, well established industry standard company. So much less that it would take a lot of time to delineate it all. That's not to say that a start up company has nothing at all at stake....but generally much, much less then the established company.


    2) the text you've given for the PCGS slab is the text for the old slab I believe, not the new slab. As I've stated, I don't know of a guarantee PCGS has established for the new slab....but they may take that step at some point to guarantee some particulars.


    3) just as I thought....there is no guarantee by CoinArmor for their bags. I don't know of any sort of bag that is as protective as the new PCGS slab. I'd bet that there are old PCGS crappy slabs from the 1980's that are still holding coins in them. That sort of lifespan will not be seen in plastic bags. If you don't monitor your bag's integrity every couple / few years, you may not catch the cracking or other compromise in the bag's overall integrity.


    4) I'm not opposed to plastic bags (CoinArmor or any other chemically non-reactive bags), I just don't see them as being in the same category as the new PCGS slabs of which I am quite impressed....and it takes a lot to impress me in such a way. All my collector coins go in plastic bags, whether they are slabbed coins or not. In fact, for about the past 2 years I generally triple bag my coins as I have learned how problematic chemicals in packaging materials, moisture, air, and the contaminants carried in the air can be for many types of coins.


    Some people may think I'm a fanatic when it comes to coins but when you understand what the term "fanatic" actually means, then you will see that it's the people who call me fanatic who are the actual fanatics. A fanatic is someone who takes or holds an uncritical position or view on something. If nothing else, I have critically looked at the subject of coin storage and surface damage to coins.




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  5. Stark

    Stark Active Member Silver Stacker

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    I guess Coin Armour bags are better than normal ones. If they are without all the chemical as stated. Also price difference with normal ones is almost irrelevant for me.

    There are several things that can damage the coin or medal.
    One is small amount of air that is kept inside the slab. 2nd is slab itself as the materials might damage the coin (although all grading companies claim their material is not doing this). Then there is outer protection (bag). Air (better said gas) that is travelling through all of this. Place in which everything is kept. Mintage process, etc.

    And at last, but not least. Nano particles. A lot of things about them are still not known.

    So quite a lot of things to take care of. :)

    Btw:
    [​IMG]
    Source: http://www.coinarmour.com/About_Intercept.html

    Of course slabs are better protection also against physical damages.

    I'm vacuum sealing all of my coins that meant something more to me. I use Intercept bags as additional protection. And Silica gels for reducing moisture.
     
  6. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    Stark, you have a similar regiment as Barsenault except maybe climate controlled storage space.

    That's interesting about the H2S being 10 times more reactive than SO2.

    Also, good point about nano particles. Also, most people don't even realize, I think, that at any given second, Neutrinos and dark matter particles are passing through our bodies......darn it, one just went through the iris in my right eye! Yikes. :)


    http://timeblimp.com/?page_id=1033


    http://www.space.com/15435-dark-matter-particles-collide-human-body.html



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  7. Stark

    Stark Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Who knows. Maybe in the future we will be saving our PM on some planet with no air and water.:p
     
  8. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    Although the 100g 2012 Silver God of Wealth medal is supposed to have a mintage of 1000 pieces the numbering system on the COAs seems to suggest that it is actually 500 pairs of the two different medals. As you know the medal set consists of one medal depicting Guanyu and another medal showing Cai Bo Xing. Am I right or wrong?

    The opposite situation holds for the lighter weight Copper and Brass medals. The mintage of 200 for the copper medal is for the pair therefore the total mintage is actually 400 medals. In the same token the 100 mintage for Brass stands for 200 total peices. Again, is this correct?

    For the 2012 1oz silver medal set I don't have any information to decide if the stated mintage is for 6800 pairs or 3400 pairs of the two medals. Does anyone have additional clarifying information? Thanks.
     
  9. andrewlee10

    andrewlee10 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    The actual mints less than 100 for the 100gram. It does sell individually or by pair.

    The 1 oz silver, brass and cooper are sell in pair only. So the mintage is X 2.

    Recently ebay sell one pair at OCGS PF69 at very low price by noami. Damn I have 3 set PF69. I keep it....
     
  10. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    "Pair" specifically means 2.

    So a pair definitely can not be 3 coins (silver, copper, brass) like you had written. 3 coins (silver, brass, and cooper) is a set. I know this may seem like I'm picking on you or others in this forum, but I'm not.....it's just that it's important for all of us to get the nomenclature correct when we talk about coins and medals.

    Because 2 X 100 is a number that is a significant 33% smaller than 3 X 100, we do need to get the nomenclature correct.

    A pair of medals can be brass & copper, or gold & platinum, or silver & bronze, or 2 of anything.....but not 3 of anything.....that's not a pair, that's a set.



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  11. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    I have to check this later but my COA#s were not below 100 or 200. So how can the actual mintage be less than 100 as you stated? Thanks.
     
  12. morezone

    morezone New Member

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    I believe he is referring to the 2 individual medals which make up a set. For the 1 oz Silver, Brass and Copper compositions, the two medals were only sold as a pair. The 100g Silver Medals were sold both individually and also as a pair.
     
  13. morezone

    morezone New Member

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    If the actual mintage was in fact 100, then I would assume that the COAs were all pre-printed. As the coins were minted to order the COAs were simply picked out at random from the bundles within the box containing the COAs for that particular medal. Or something to that effect.
     
  14. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    You pretty much have written what I was going to.


    I know a couple of people who buy Chinese medals who have actually requested from the mint, specific COA #'s and have received them with the medals. Of course, in those cases, the requests will need to be made early and granted the requested COA can't already have been packaged with a sold medal.




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  15. andrewlee10

    andrewlee10 Well-Known Member Silver Stacker

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    Diff. mints diff. policies. However, as my knowledge the official mints will not mints more than the plan mintage in coa.
     
  16. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    Is there any expectation that there will be a 2015 China Panda Coin Expo Medal? If so when will it launch? Additional details are welcome. Thanks.
     
  17. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    Should someone be buying plain silver bullion coins now given the relatively low price we have right now? Especially important question given that this is MCC thread. Should one be buying lots more panda coins (in sheets for example) or looking for bars etc? Thanks for comments.
     
  18. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    It's a great question that no one else can really answer for you.

    Personally, I am expecting or waiting for a drop to USD $14 on the nose (give or take a few cents) to buy blobs (common or generic bullion coins or rounds/bars). We have come close twice in the past 14 months or so but I'm going to wait. My cost average is way too high to buy blobs at this moment in time. I believe we will see lower spot prices in the foreseeable future and premiums staying about the same.

    The price may never get to $14 though and that's why I really can't give you great advice...it's all personal goals and beliefs.



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  19. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    Thanks for your thoughts. I haven't bought much bullion in the last few years, apart from my yearly and quarterly customary buys, because of the continually falling spot price of gold and silver. I am not attentive or expert enough to determine when the bottom is reached. A friend said $12 but you know how it is! While waiting for 12 you may find yourself buying at 16 (just a wild example). Anyway, I'll keep an eye on things to determine if and when to make relevant purchases. Thanks again.
     

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