Our Daily Bread a.k.a. MCC Fix (Random Thoughts, Updates, Advice, Etc)

Discussion in 'Modern Chinese Coins & Medallions' started by KeepOnTrying!, May 25, 2015.

  1. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    So, this is a private mint medal? I keep on seeing more and more original designs from private mints and most of the ones I know were through your postings. Great designs!
     
  2. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    Private reputable mint, yes. I believe the Shanghai New Century Medals company (mint) employs some former official mint folks. Someone (maybe andrew) posted in one of these threads that the sculptor (I'm not sure if the medal designer is also the sculptor) of the Snake Dance medal is a renowned and highly skilled sculptor. I think medal expert Frank Wang also mentioned this in the China-Mint (MCC) forum.

    I suppose it's not much different than a reputable private entity in the U.S. which employs highly skilled sculptors to create their own medals....the Medallic Art Company (MACO) comes to mind. It's a private mint / foundry that has produced excellent medals and many of their medals are highly sought after. MACO "has produced some of the world's most distinguished awards such as the Pulitzer Prize, the Peabody Award, the Newbery and Caldecott medals, and the Inaugural medals for eleven U.S. Presidents." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medallic_Art_Company.

    Comparing some of the poorly designed medals from the official mints in China and the US Mint to some of the spectacularly designed and created medals from certain private mints in their respective country, we can readily see that the official mints may indeed produce inferior medals more often than is openly acknowledged by some.

    So just because a mint, whether Chinese, American, or otherwise), is private, does not at all mean that the medals are necessarily inferior to official mints.



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  3. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    That has always been my perspective especially because of experience elsewhere. I have come across products of the MACO and they all look unique and thought provoking. Whearas the reason many of us collect medals is because we like them. But some have put them down as investment vehicles in comparison to "official" mint products. I must confirm I like them saying this so that there is no sale pressure on these wonderful private mint products. I chased down that Transit of Venus Medal you first showcased. I am quietly admiring the artwork! I heard they did not produce more than 100 sets of the copper and brass medals contrary to their initial plan for ?350 medals.
     
  4. Elkslayer132

    Elkslayer132 New Member

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    Does PCGS grade the world heritage 300gram medals or the Xi shi medals (any of the oversize medals) for that fact. And do they charge extra like NGC(oversize holder charge $20) i cannot find it on their website.
    Thanks for info
     
  5. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    I haven't done any grading with PCGS. Hopefully someone will have more definite information. PCGS grades 5oz Panda coins too.
     
  6. NumiKat

    NumiKat New Member

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    This is a series of large medals, if I'm not mistaken... It started with the dragon in 2012 and includes a horse for 2014.
     
  7. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    Do you have any photos or is there somewhere we can see the pictures on the web? Do you have a title we can use in googling it? Thanks.
     
  8. NumiKat

    NumiKat New Member

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    Thincat00 has a year of the horse medal for sale in silver, mintage of 99:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/China-2013-...08e4a13&pid=100033&rk=3&rkt=4&sd=161023372514
     
  9. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    From what I have been told by someone who appears to know a lot about the 2012 Transit of Venus medals, the mold broke during production and the mint apparently did not want to take up the enormous expense of having a new mold created so only 100 sets of the brass & copper were minted and a mere 10 silver were minted (a COA #12, to coincide with the year 2012, for one of the silver medals was apparently requested by a buyer so there is at least one COA for a silver Transit of Venus medal that is higher than the actual mintage number).

    Indeed, not only a very beautifully designed medal, but a rare medal as well.



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    2012 Transit of Venus copper medal obverse



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    2012 Transit of Venus copper medal reverse



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    2012 Transit of Venus brass medal obverse



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    2012 Transit of Venus brass medal reverse



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    2012 Transit of Venus silver medal obverse



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    2012 Transit of Venus silver medal obverse



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    2012 Transit of Venus silver medal obverse



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    2012 Transit of Venus silver medal obverse



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    2012 Transit of Venus silver medal reverse



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    2012 Transit of Venus silver medal reverse



    [​IMG]
    2012 Transit of Venus silver medal reverse




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  10. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    Good question, unfortunately, I do not know the answer.

    NGC was very smart to take on experts like like Peter Anthony (who is a member of this forum) as a consultant and I believe other Chinese MCC experts. I'm not sure if PCGS has done the same.

    If Peter ever reads this post, maybe he can give us some more insight into the question of PCGS authenticating and grading Chinese medals and the notable differences between NGC and PCGS, if any.




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  11. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    Great job finding the silver. I am still looking for one! Thanks for the inspiration once more. It requires courage and a certain type of integrity (a.k.a. intelligence) not to adversely prejudge any thing until you know all about it. That three medal set is very valuable!
     
  12. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    I posted here in mistake. Sorry!
     
  13. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, they say. They also say that one man's meat is another man's poison. There has been a lot of froth recently over valuation of the silver panda coins of recent mintage. I am happy that sage members of this forum did not allow themselves to get sucked into the short term maelstrom. I read all the "OMG!" "I can't believe it's happening!" posts all over. I was troubled for a moment but asked myself "What are you? Collector, speculator, investor, trader, bonehead, don't know?" I reaffirmed what I was and continued my day in peace.

    The 1oz silver panda coins were designed to be bullion coins. However due to massive excitement with the initial releases with consequent skyrocketing of prices they achieved numismatic status. Recent trends in their mintage are forcing the 1oz silver panda coins back to their initially conceived bullion nature.

    This does not negate the collectible nature of 1oz silver pandas; you just have to determine what the coin means to you and what your strategy is.

    One strategy has been to collect 1oz silver panda coins from the first year of release onwards; every year you pick up your regulatory one or two or whatever number of 1oz pandas you usually buy, place in your collection and move on to other things. One plus of the panda coins is that their image invariably change every year. That is pleasing to the eye! The merit of this strategy lies in the cumulative value of the set as a whole; from all estimates is already worth $five figures.

    In that case, it does not matter what happens subsequently to the yearly mintage. Each year the value of the whole set continues to increase. You will also continue to derive pleasure by looking at the many faces of your panda coins!

    If you have such a set, my humble opinion is that you continue to add to your collection yearly. It doesn't prevent you from buying other coins which may fit the non-bullion definition better! As I have written elsewhere, pinch your nose, plug your ears, almost shut tight your eyes but go ahead and buy your yearly 1oz panda coin. Don't worry about the noise and China mint aggravation! Just go ahead and get your yearly 1oz fix!

    But it is all a free world.

    Thanks once more for your sanity here!
     
  14. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    ^ I would add, don't buy in the middle of this current pump and dump hype because if you do, and you are paying more than a few $ over spot, you are over paying. Wait the hype out and be a smart buyer....prices are bound to come back to the low issue price or lower depending on future events including the spot price of silver and whether the mint will push out a few million more pandas. You may have to wait a few months but why rush into buying a bullion coin that's minted by the millions?



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  15. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    Your comments bring up another point; unless someone just started collecting recently and is learning the ropes he/she probably should (I am sorry!) already have a strategy for investing in panda coins. If this is true he should, for example, have bought all the 2015 1oz Panda coins that were needed before now, unless buying incrementally. If the latter is the case he probably needs to take a break for now and look for something else, less noisy. These comments don't apply if he is a speculator; he is on his own!

    I am not an expert in panda coins but the little I know is that these coins are bullion in the first year or so of release, although their premium over spot is higher compared to most other bullion coins. Over time they begin to assume more of a numismatic status. I notice that it might take up to 4 years to start noting that effect. These comments relate mainly to the 1oz silver panda coin but but probably apply to other coins.

    Appreciation of value seems to be faster for MS70 coins, early releases and first strikes although these may not be invariable.

    Patterns and errors also enhance value. I saw at NGC sometime ago that they found some double strike panda coins!
     
  16. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    Yes, the smart collector doesn't buy in a frenzy when prices are high or erratic. Speculators might buy when prices are climbing but they are playing a risky game of Musical Chairs and some will be caught out with no chair to sit on....no buyers willing to pay the same or more than what they paid. They will have to sell for a loss (they are not collectors) and prices are bound to come down at a point after this.

    2014 MS70 Pandas can be purchased for around USD $57 free shipping: http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/281229372440?rmvSB=true and here: http://www.jmbullion.com/2014-1-oz-chinese-silver-panda-pcgs-ms70/



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  17. Stark

    Stark Active Member Silver Stacker

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    Did you get any reply? I guess mintage is still 9? :)
     
  18. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    Yes, I did find out that the mintage is still 9. I was told that to mint a single silver medal requires a lot of work and effort....so much so that they (the mint) will not mint orders of less than 5 silver medals. Not too many people are ready to place orders of $12,500 minimum. Besides, they are now in production of the Lunar Goat and soon to be Lunar Monkey. So, it could be that the mintage of the Snake Dance remains 9 indefinitely.

    I'm constantly checking eBay to see if someone is selling one of their super rare silver Snake Dance medals...looks like thincat00 sold the last one available a while back.


    Maybe not as rare as the silver (but still very scarce) are the exquisite brass and copper versions of the Snake Dance medal...do you have either version Stark?



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    I tried to remove the seller's logo but since it covered part of the image of the medal, I was not completely successful



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    I tried to remove the seller's logo but since it covered part of the image of the medal, I was not completely successful



    [​IMG]
    I tried to remove the seller's logo but since it covered part of the image of the medal, I was not completely successful



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  19. KeepOnTrying!

    KeepOnTrying! Member

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    This is an opinion of possible MCC production strategies, outside of the yearly Panda and other coins and medals regularly released by official mints in China. My question is this: What is the best strategy for producing coins/medals that will attract a lot of interest, sell very well and appreciate in value in a respectable manner over time?

    I am asking this because I have noted that some recent private sector sponsored Panda medals are being sold for amounts that many forum members are unhappy with. And these members are not misers! Rather they are mostly experienced collectors, investors and sellers. Furthermore, thousands of these medals were minted to boot!(BTW this write up does not refer to any coin or medal that has been presented or discussed in this current forum thread).

    I believe that to be successful a medal should be well designed and relevant in some way, culturally, historically or in any other way. It must stir something emotional and make someone want to buy the medal, bad! It shouldn't just be another Panda coin, there has to be something extra!

    It probably should weigh at least 2oz but can be heavier. It could be made of .999 silver but a set comprising of silver, brass and copper may arouse more interest. In fact a three metal set with the same COA# will be unique enough and sell faster.

    It also should be well designed, sculptured and engraved. And none of those white spots and haze!

    The mintage is of critical importance. I believe that a coin or medal should be minted in just enough numbers calculated to sell out at the mint or major distributor's within 6-9 months. Coins still being sold after a certain number of months from the mint or major distributor's shop could depress prices of coins already sold and roaming around in the population!

    Perhaps pricing is one of the most important attributes of a best selling coin. But this is where some producers and sponsors have gone totally wrong. Examples I have in mind are too expensive by any standards. Their current launch prices are what the medals should actually be sold or resold at in 6-12 months' time or more. It is as if the producer wants to make all the profit and eat into the coin appreciation potential at the same time. This is whale pricing and does not make any sense!

    If the producer wants to share in the price appreciation of their product they probably need to lock away <10% of the coins and quietly sell slowly as the value increases. This will be similar to what founders of stock-market listed companies do with some of their stock and stock options.

    If I was to produce a silver medal today (I have absolutely no capability or plans for doing so today!) I will sell the ungraded 1oz silver for less than $50USD and the 2oz coin for less than $120. If I produced a 5oz silver coin I believe a sale price of less than $300 will allow it to be sold fast.

    Mintage and coin launch sale price should have an inverse relationship; larger mintages should be priced very affordably. And what is large? Probably anything more than 999 minted. Again, using specific examples I may mint up to 3000 1oz silver coins, less than 500 2oz coins and less than 200 5oz coins. These are just figures I am throwing out without any technical expertise in minting or numismatics. However, I believe that these are figures that may attract more interest than the current out of hand pricing some have complained about recently.

    Anyway, these are thoughts that come to mind whenever I see dyssynchrony in mintage/pricing of coins at release. Perhaps other forum members may have a contrary opinion or additional information to help carry the thought process forward.

    Thanks.
     
  20. mmissinglink

    mmissinglink Active Member

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    KOT, I can only speak for myself and my tastes - a medal will capture my attention if it (in no particular order of importance):
    1) is aesthetically designed and masterfully sculpted
    2) is fairly large
    3) is low mintage
    4) features a subject that is not a turn-off




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