You should have added a disclaimer that the only definitions as described by Redback would be accepted I'll try once again to defeat an argument (which I kind of agree with) for the sake of argument (and a Maple): Central to what you have written is a definition of money (and money supply) - therefore: "money/mn/Noun 1. A current medium of exchange in the form of coins and banknotes; coins and banknotes collectively." I don't think there can be any argument about the definition of money - it is a historic term. Regardless - the only thing that really matters is the part which reads "a current medium of exchange" and I don't believe you would argue with that. In order for gold and silver to be money it would need to be accepted as a current medium of exchange . To live in the world as you do now I believe it impossible to survive with silver and gold alone. Pick a typical month (everything purchased in order to live - not just survive) and you could not exchange your Ag or Au for all of those things (at an acceptable quantity for the goods exchanged). Gold and Silver can not be a competing money supply if they are not interchangeable with FIAT - ergo FIATs value against PMs is the only thing that matters and my argument stands. The argument that Gold is Gold doesn't hold - extrapolating this would mean that any commodity is always worth what it is. I.e. a tonne of wheat is a tonne of wheat and a tonne of cow is a tonne of cow - in the end you need FIAT (or a conversion to FIAT - that is, spot price in FIAT) to trade one for the other.
Elemental you have your own Disclaimerthat your arguments are central to the Western World. Gold is a monetary supply in a lot of 3rd world countries. Try taking gold to India,Africa,South America there you would have no problems surviving using gold in transactions. Central to what i have written is that 'Money is a medium of exchange' There are different forms of money' Gold and Silver' then there is Fiat money then there are shells PNG etc,etc Gold and Silver are and have been competing money supplies to the Fiat systemAnd that has been the bane of the Fiat system.Gold and Silver's value must be artificially kept in check for the current Fiat system to survive in its present form. """"The argument that Gold is Gold doesn't hold - extrapolating this would mean that any commodity is always worth what it is. I.e. a tonne of wheat is a tonne of wheat and a tonne of cow is a tonne of cow - in the end you need FIAT (or a conversion to FIAT - that is, spot price in FIAT) to trade one for the other""""""""""" (Gold was measured in grains and when used as money in the Western world an agreed upon grain weight was used when coining gold and Silver) And quickly don't forget i am not reinventing the wheel,our governments would like us to forget that Gold and Silver were Monetary supplies before the Fiat System was introduced. Then of coarse there is also the legal tender status values printed on a lot of Gold and Silver coins produced.That as ridiculous a value as it is, makes it legal and binding to accept in exchanges. I point that out only as an irrelevant stupid technicality..as if Gotta go bye byes REDBACK
I'm not too sure about how gold and silver are used in the third world - I do believe my statements would be true for more than 70% of the worlds population. Globalisation and the influence of western governments would be increasing that % daily. I was aware of the historic measurement of gold in grains but remember the definition of money is a 'current' medium of exchange. The history is unimportant.
actually..........i would have thought the HISTORICAL persective of "money" is very important to this discussion....and relevent?????...................NO??
In Kalgoorlie gold nuggets have been and still are regularly traded for commodities especially in pubs! What does 'third world' now refer to?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World Not directly targetted at you but a lot of people confuse Third World with developing countries. Stupid US/NATO propaganda.
Thanks fishball my bad on that miss understanding.Developing not Third world my Western ignorance indoctrination coming through REDBACK
Well these one kinda jump out at me ... "The price of silver is up almost 100% in the last 12 months - why should it go higher?" "What will you do if the price stays where it is for 10 years?" "It has before so why will this time be any different?"
This definition of money is more suited to the term currency. For it to be money it also has to have intrinsic value ... savvy?? Why it is not possible? It has been done for thousands of years - right up to fairly recently. Admitedly it can be inconvenient to take physical coins along for each and every transaction, and this has very easily been solved in the past by using promissory notes or IOUs - FULLY BACKED by gold and/or silver. So yes - you can use "paper money" - but the big difference is these are backed by real gold/silver - not sweet f..all like the current fiat notes are! SAVVY??!
Can you expand on why these are "dumb" questions. Why do you think that you don't need answers to these questions if you are putting money into silver? malachii
"Pm's have never lost value over the years Silver is Silver and Gold is Gold" Pm has lost their value before, case in point Aluminium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#History What does that case illustrate? That the value of anything, be it commodity/service/ medium of exchange can change. Normally affected by supply and demand. The ever changing of value allows correction to happen. Consider this: A goat is 1oz of silver, you have 1000oz of silver. Say, all food got wiped out and now everyone trades in silver, there are now 5 goats left. and there are 200 hungry people. If the goats go on auction, do you think they just sell for 1oz of silver? Most likely, the highest bidder wins the goat at more than 1oz per goat. In this case silver would have gone through a major devaluation and hence a correction. This situation happens throughout history, be it a shift in manufacturing process (hence aluminium can be extracted easy and lost its precious badge) or a shift in need (say in the future we need tungsten more than silver). At this point correction or appreciation can and will happen. Another point to address (not trying to criticise, I just love a good discussion .... and PM) "Gold and Silver are and have been competing money supplies to the Fiat systemAnd that has been the bane of the Fiat system.Gold and Silver's value must be artificially kept in check for the current Fiat system to survive in its present form." Silver and gold is actually a commodity that at this period of time retains their value against just about everything else. Hence they are the tool used to keep people from losing their financial position. As time goes by however, their function as a store of value can change as well. It is however not a good medium of trade for big trades. Imagine if everyone now banks in silver and gold. I want to buy a .... space ship, cost 20 tonnes of gold. Even if I have it, how do I move 20 tonnes of gold to purchase, it will be going back to the wild west times (hire armored trucks, guards, etc). The logistics of every transaction becomes really cumbersome. And you can pretty much kiss goodbye internet transactions. If we then use paper backed by gold, isn't this just re-inventing the wheel? Hence there has not been a massive move to rush back to gold or silver standard. Another case to consider: The U.S. Dollar. A lot of people are screaming, it is going to die etc, hyperinflation. It is possible and it can happen, however the U.S. Dollar represents america's economy, its ability to produce/serve something of value. There are a lot of corporations in america that is at this present time irreplaceable by gold or silver. Google, Apple, GE, Lockheed Martin, DARPA, Mensa, MIT, NASA and many more. This is what the U.S. Dollar actually stands for, the collective output of these industries, innovators, creators. Without that, the dollar ain't worth a penny. Gold is a store of value, but these industries are value generators. Which is why, the feds can keep printing money, had this been erurozone or china, they would be declared default and insolvent already. Disclaimer: I don't like the u.s. dollar, however this is the reality we live in. I think a total collapse is unlikely, but a period of deep recession should come. My position on PM: it is a good insurance and should be treated as a saving, hence gradual accumulation, no speculations.
I am indeed incredibly savvy - why would what you have written above be so. Your individual belief does not define a term. Currency is actually "a system of money in general use in a particular country". Much misunderstanding of the written word is through poor definition of well understood and described terms. Savvy? Again yes - it would be impossible because all of the entities you purchase from in a month (as stated in my original post) currently have no system to accept payment in gold and silver. Try it at a supermarket, to pay your power bill, with your mobile phone and internet company etc etc etc. It is not the inconvenience of the physical coins but current level of acceptance of those as money. Do I need to bold Savvy this time - no I don't think so.
Theres too many holes here to address without taking a day off from workto address My arguments fall in line with Ron Pauls and Edwin Viera Jr. which he explains in the book, Pieces of Eight: Thats me done on this topic REDBACK
Once again - i'll leave this as an open question for others to comment on ... Let's see what others here have to say about the merits of first finding answers to the above three questions before purchasing any (more) silver ...
+ 100 lol - Redback - we've been "adversories" before (on property questions) but i gotta hand it to ya - i couldnt have said it better myself! In fact, i see you've basically said exactly the same as what i just did a minute ago :lol:
Well that's just another point to add then to the differences between currency and money. Because real money has intrinsic value it transcends national borders... SAVVY ??? Again, no it would not be impossible. In fact it was done for many hundreds of years - and well into the 20th century - where dollar notes were fully redeemable in gold. So yes - it is very possible to buy and sell even very small quanitities of goods and services for notes backed by gold because at the end of the day, week, month or year you can claim the total value of all the notes in your possession fully in gold. SAVVY???
anyone who have read pieces of eight have anything to add? or anything to add anyone? please point to the holes in my argument and point me to the correct answer. I won't be offended.
Pieces of Eight: The Monetary Powers and Disabilities of the United States Constitution; A Study in Constitutional Law. ebayItem number: 270756237851 Unlikely many have read this on SS The book 'End The Fed' has been doing the rounds by Ron Paul(Great place to start reading before you launch into Edwins book) Edwin's book is recommend by Gold bugs and Constitutional monatarians(sic) Then you have Austrian economics The 3 above tie in beautifully like a Symphony of common sense.Time for a revolution REDBACK
revolution is easy, I have lived through 1. 1998-2000 Indonesia. The after revolution is hard. all the noble ideas, clever, common sense, true, factual, etc eventually goes out of the window. Why does it happen? well, the ones in charge of governing it are still humans after all.
