Calling all Manipulation Theorists
- Thread starter wrcmad
- Start date
Fined $1 Billion USD
Potential Profit from 8 years of spoofing: approx $10 Billion USD
So they made $1.1Bil a year after covering the fine. There's your incentive.
It's a disastrous outcome. The CFTC pretend to be regulators, and act like their sending a clear message by "making those responsible fully accountable". It's a slap on the wrist and a pat on the bum, at best.
I wonder where the $$ go. Likely a profitable exercise for all involved.
I still reckon the manipulation theory is for those that like to play victim, and project blame onto others for their own bad investment decisions.Well, @wrcmad mad is back after a hiatus (I think that's a hernia) and in the meantime silver and gold have ripped. Does this put to bed all of the manipulation theories?
PerthMintFan
New Member
I'd be willing to believe any kind of dirty trick coming from the Comex "commercial" traders like JP Morgan to fleece the speculators.
You and a lot of others.
It ensures you are never wrong - If metals skyrocket, then you are a genius. If metals stagnate, then it wasn't your fault, you were right, but you are a victim.
There are psychological terms describing people who are unwilling to believe they are ever wrong.
PerthMintFan
New Member
Well I'm not wrong on this one; I have personal experience of being cheated by JP Morgan at the MF-Global collapse - where the "segregated customer funds" account, including some of my money, was seized to pay MF Global's other debts. Then-boss John Corzine even invented a new word for this crime: "Rehypothecation" meaning funds twice-allocated. And thanks to his political connections he was never locked up.
IME one will do better at trading if you expect and plan for dirty work from US banks. Who are getting away with almost anything in the current regime.
IME one will do better at trading if you expect and plan for dirty work from US banks. Who are getting away with almost anything in the current regime.
A trade of schitty Euro bonds gone bad does not equal precious metal price manipulation.
In fact, it could be argued that this trade gone bad demonstrates these big institutions are just as exposed and vulnerable to market movements as the rest of us.
Manipulation is a funny term.
People manipulate precious metals into different forms, from bars to coins for example, to sell the same thing at a different price...
Id call that ... value added labor, art, uniqueness, perhaps a meme or form (silver bullet, silver lego brick, silver baby dummy) representing an idea but ultimately... they have targets, incentives and marketing aspects that they start working with for profit like: demographics... and part of that is access to data about people to guage a market.
You then have people that work that process backwards... they look at the demographic and perhaps an existing product (or perhaps not) and put together advertising, promotional material etc etc.. to promote the aspects, get the information on availability out there and drive business.
Nothing new there. you might not even have a specific physical item... mabie you stand to profit from selling silver things in general, ties into businesses where your content leads to a revenue stream... mabie that revenue stream is jsut people viewing the content (youtube: Silver AI Guy) or you have a name your associating for industry inclusion and opportunities: (pick any spruiker), mabie its from affiliate flow through margins to any number of bullion dealers... thats all in the realm of joining dots on knowlege nd cherrypicking what your saying for the purpose of profit...
My specific "Conspiricy theory" is really more of an angle that: "Advertising is the root of all evil"
that is more so due to the way people get targeted, data collected, agregates and PII gets analised > segments get select content, algorithms bias availability of knowlege, promoters (legitimate or fraudulent) leverage that infomation to market or direct your attention to where they can profit...
That leads to any otherwise enjoyable activity that can support monetisation getting advertising interrupts to your life, and supports the commercialisation of: whever your focus on, which they track, influence and ultimately end up biasing the ability for any enhancement to those things in life to the capitalists that support that invasive path.
Lets go there... because manipulation, is on everything when that is considered.
the right to privacy, lost via intrusive advertising also allows for the ability to see and analise the effects of any kind of propiganda.
That word is the triggering one for the link to a conspiricy on anything.. because you would need: one of the priveleged demographics with access to the sensitive data that others are not privy too, to make decisions that influence the way they can maintain that access, and everything that it brings. generally speaking, knowlege, the abilty to forerun and compete in business and project/predit the effects of actions that they can take.
Is silver maniuplated?
Sure why not... Its used in many important industrial processes.
It was recently categorised as a strategic resourse.
Why wouldnt strategic resources be managed inline with the data, and tactical options avaialble to those that need it?
Changes in export controls, etc. show that actions are taken to influence its movement across borders.
Im not of the belief that theirs a satanic goat worshiping cult using voodoo and secret ties to AI overlords with "super-big data" planning to add addictive substances to various "paper or digital" money, or robots that subvert logical thinking, or clandestine thinktanks gathering to discuss how the (specificly) silver coin crowd is going to free themselves from their tyranical hold on an otherwise 0-sum game that they have turned into a rat race for survival agaisnt one exestencial crisis after another...
I just think that "advertising is the root of all evil".
Not even a dig at capitalism... jsut the way that the system works in this day and age where knowlege/belief and the unknowns of the world lead to a subjective vulnerability that biases those with power and knowlege over those with the second hand power granted to them, and the knowlege curated to them that they are allowed to believe in.
As for, specificly, price manipulation in the silver market, and the accessable data, media, social discussions, and wealthy investors...
Technical analysis that can determine where a short is going to effectively cause a chain reaction of stop loss triggers, is a thing... you only have to go onto Metatrader and look at the avaialble ROBO traders, take a course required to get access to leverage short trading. and/or attempt to generate predictive trading strategies and see that when they are optomised they seem to immediately fail to unpredictable market movements.
and then see that if you simply take more compute to the problem, you can hold through those unexpected swings onto to get busted by others that you cant seem to filter out, to the realisation... the AI bots are fighting each other with the same "knowlege and compute" tactics.
And those are not sentient living organisms, if anything, theyir agents/applicaiton funnels owned, setup and executed by existing market participants, to win and lose based on algoritms the owners probibly are not fully congnisant on outside ofa risk ratio and some quantitative controls.
I dont think thats any thing new, and was probibly done with excel, pen and paper, and going further back traders who reach a market by sea before others...
Its a bit different in that you can get knowlege FROM anywhere these days.
its not likely to be any better than guessing unless you have the ability to buy it for a use that is strategic and can lead to competing on that influene front... and that lands us at the juncture where notional business interestes meets global governments...
I got nothing after that; theirs wars, death, warships, and catstrophy after catastropy that doesnt seem to be aligned with what the other 10 million species on the planet do day to day, so i think were a bit exceptional in how far we take having power over others.
That said.. looks like bacteria and virusus have been at it since the beginning of time... so who knows mabie we are not that exeptional afterall.
Good to see you back @wrcmad.
People manipulate precious metals into different forms, from bars to coins for example, to sell the same thing at a different price...
Id call that ... value added labor, art, uniqueness, perhaps a meme or form (silver bullet, silver lego brick, silver baby dummy) representing an idea but ultimately... they have targets, incentives and marketing aspects that they start working with for profit like: demographics... and part of that is access to data about people to guage a market.
You then have people that work that process backwards... they look at the demographic and perhaps an existing product (or perhaps not) and put together advertising, promotional material etc etc.. to promote the aspects, get the information on availability out there and drive business.
Nothing new there. you might not even have a specific physical item... mabie you stand to profit from selling silver things in general, ties into businesses where your content leads to a revenue stream... mabie that revenue stream is jsut people viewing the content (youtube: Silver AI Guy) or you have a name your associating for industry inclusion and opportunities: (pick any spruiker), mabie its from affiliate flow through margins to any number of bullion dealers... thats all in the realm of joining dots on knowlege nd cherrypicking what your saying for the purpose of profit...
My specific "Conspiricy theory" is really more of an angle that: "Advertising is the root of all evil"
that is more so due to the way people get targeted, data collected, agregates and PII gets analised > segments get select content, algorithms bias availability of knowlege, promoters (legitimate or fraudulent) leverage that infomation to market or direct your attention to where they can profit...
That leads to any otherwise enjoyable activity that can support monetisation getting advertising interrupts to your life, and supports the commercialisation of: whever your focus on, which they track, influence and ultimately end up biasing the ability for any enhancement to those things in life to the capitalists that support that invasive path.
Lets go there... because manipulation, is on everything when that is considered.
the right to privacy, lost via intrusive advertising also allows for the ability to see and analise the effects of any kind of propiganda.
That word is the triggering one for the link to a conspiricy on anything.. because you would need: one of the priveleged demographics with access to the sensitive data that others are not privy too, to make decisions that influence the way they can maintain that access, and everything that it brings. generally speaking, knowlege, the abilty to forerun and compete in business and project/predit the effects of actions that they can take.
Is silver maniuplated?
Sure why not... Its used in many important industrial processes.
It was recently categorised as a strategic resourse.
Why wouldnt strategic resources be managed inline with the data, and tactical options avaialble to those that need it?
Changes in export controls, etc. show that actions are taken to influence its movement across borders.
Im not of the belief that theirs a satanic goat worshiping cult using voodoo and secret ties to AI overlords with "super-big data" planning to add addictive substances to various "paper or digital" money, or robots that subvert logical thinking, or clandestine thinktanks gathering to discuss how the (specificly) silver coin crowd is going to free themselves from their tyranical hold on an otherwise 0-sum game that they have turned into a rat race for survival agaisnt one exestencial crisis after another...
I just think that "advertising is the root of all evil".
Not even a dig at capitalism... jsut the way that the system works in this day and age where knowlege/belief and the unknowns of the world lead to a subjective vulnerability that biases those with power and knowlege over those with the second hand power granted to them, and the knowlege curated to them that they are allowed to believe in.
As for, specificly, price manipulation in the silver market, and the accessable data, media, social discussions, and wealthy investors...
Technical analysis that can determine where a short is going to effectively cause a chain reaction of stop loss triggers, is a thing... you only have to go onto Metatrader and look at the avaialble ROBO traders, take a course required to get access to leverage short trading. and/or attempt to generate predictive trading strategies and see that when they are optomised they seem to immediately fail to unpredictable market movements.
and then see that if you simply take more compute to the problem, you can hold through those unexpected swings onto to get busted by others that you cant seem to filter out, to the realisation... the AI bots are fighting each other with the same "knowlege and compute" tactics.
And those are not sentient living organisms, if anything, theyir agents/applicaiton funnels owned, setup and executed by existing market participants, to win and lose based on algoritms the owners probibly are not fully congnisant on outside ofa risk ratio and some quantitative controls.
I dont think thats any thing new, and was probibly done with excel, pen and paper, and going further back traders who reach a market by sea before others...
Its a bit different in that you can get knowlege FROM anywhere these days.
its not likely to be any better than guessing unless you have the ability to buy it for a use that is strategic and can lead to competing on that influene front... and that lands us at the juncture where notional business interestes meets global governments...
I got nothing after that; theirs wars, death, warships, and catstrophy after catastropy that doesnt seem to be aligned with what the other 10 million species on the planet do day to day, so i think were a bit exceptional in how far we take having power over others.
That said.. looks like bacteria and virusus have been at it since the beginning of time... so who knows mabie we are not that exeptional afterall.
Good to see you back @wrcmad.
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