Silver Kangaroo Coins and Milk Spots
- Thread starter Silverling
- Start date
I could be wrong, but I always had the impression that the Kangaroos were PMs "generic round" so to speak, their low premium bullion coin to compete with Maples, ASE's, Britts etc, so because it's cheaper than their more premium Kooks etc the quality is lower, and probably on par with those other competitors to be honest
All mints would know exactly what causes this milking, because it's not a coincidence that their cheap stuff milks and their more premium stuff doesn't. Clearly has something to do with costs - cheaper to make, cheaper to sell, and the quality reflects that
barsenault
Well-Known Member
Kooks - meant to say Roo.
You are correct with everything you wrote. My issue is not that there is cost cutting to make a cheaper coin, the issue is them playing dumb about it. As a consumer i have the right to know what I'm buying so I can make a more informed decision whether to buy them or not. In my case i would have never touched them if i knew about the milky issues.
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Very true, Im sure they have an inkling what is causing it.
So if Perth Mint wrote a blog post and wrote something like....
"We suspect it is XYZ causing milk spot to develop and minimising this would mean an extra $1 in production cost and we do not think it is appropriate for a bullion coin. However we are continually looking at new technologies and processes to achieve milk spot free coins."
I am sure most would agree.
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Just want to clear up something. It's true the mints might not understand chemically what is happening, but it's 100% sure they know what in the production line is causing it to happen.
Think it's very disappointing that all mints treat their customers like idiots and act like dodgy used car salesmen. All they have to do is have a disclaimer that specific low premium coins are highly prone to milk spots. Then people can make a clear choice whether to buy or not.
Anyway hope everyone reads this thread so they know what to expect with the kangaroo coins. Maybe this will cause people to back away as many people have with Maples.
Think it's very disappointing that all mints treat their customers like idiots and act like dodgy used car salesmen. All they have to do is have a disclaimer that specific low premium coins are highly prone to milk spots. Then people can make a clear choice whether to buy or not.
Anyway hope everyone reads this thread so they know what to expect with the kangaroo coins. Maybe this will cause people to back away as many people have with Maples.
I think Bron did a good feature article on milk spots here some time ago, perhaps with pictures of milk spots under scanning electron microscopy. They are tiny inclusion bodies with the theory that they come from surface reactions with atmospheric dust particles and the like.
A common problem with maples.
Yow that roo looks like someone puked on it. Wonder if it has something to do with the array of radial spokes in that design.
A common problem with maples.
Yow that roo looks like someone puked on it. Wonder if it has something to do with the array of radial spokes in that design.
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whay
Well-Known Member
leo25, you be surprised there are many dumb milk spot lovers who continue to buy heaps of these shitty coins. Why should the mint treat them any better if they aren't complaining.
1. Maples
2. Kangaroo
3. Britannia
4. Phila
5. Queen Beasts
6. ....
Nothing wrong with it, if the buyer is paying low premium and are investing in the metal.
If buying few coins or a roll at a time, I don’t think it’s wise to bank on much more than spot for these cabins. The Queens beast on the other hand is too much premium.
I’m in the process of getting QB a few at a time for personal collection, but I’m not buying from dealers anymore, I’ll buy at spot from people who will be disappointed when milk spots comes. If I can’t get a complete set so be it.
SlyGuy
Active Member
I "buy them ever year." Lol. I would take the complete counter argument to you... for basic logical reason: chemistry.
Blame the metal, not the mints. It is silver. It tarnishes. Much like bronze or copper or nearly any metal, that is its very nature. A simple trip to a coin show will demonstrate this (and many of those old coins have even been professionally cleaned and buffed!). You can pay as high a premium as you like for silver coins, and the results will be no different. Silver 999 purity (or 9999 in the case of maples or some others) is all the same. That tenth or hundredth of a percent doesn't have some magical anti-corrosive in the coins with a higher premium which is lacking in standard bullion issues... or replaced in the basic stuff by milkspot-causing secret concentrate serum??? Lol. I'm sure that the bullion sellers and mints love that you believe more expensive coins to be made of superior silver or better manufacturing process, though.
Back in reality, the higher premium silver coins are simply more likely to be kept in capsules by the dealers and/or buyers, so they tend to age a bit better (but will still have their fair share of problems, since they are made of silver, at the end of the day). The basic ASE or philharms or whatever tend to just stay in the mint tube or be put in plastic flips or even kept in nothing and handled without gloves... and they tend to age rougher. I have cracked open many sealed mint rolls of ASE, maple, philharm, brit etc etc from a few or many years prior (opened them to put them into air-tite), and most were pretty good, others not so much, a few pretty bad. It is the same thing with cars... you see plenty of good or excellent condition top models from 30 or even 50 years ago... but not too many basic models that old were handled with significant care and limited on mileage. It doesn't mean the more expensive ones naturally resisted rusting or denting or butts cracking the seats any better... simply that they don't have as many miles on them and got more washes, waxes, and garage storage or sun cover.
It is not as if the mints use different silver or a radically different manufacture process for low versus high premium coins either. Their goal is to efficiently produce a good product... and sell it for the best price they can attain. The wash or rinse or polishing processes have problems from time to time, but it is in the mint's best nature to correct those asap. Some of the proof coins are inspected individually for strike quality and cooled slower (re-melted and done again if they aren't up to snuff), but with any mass produced bullion, you are drinking the kool aid if you think one will age significantly better than the next.
Perth is the king of getting premiums for coins that don't really deserve it, and that is just a function of good marketing and reputation. Nothing wrong with that, but you have to be realistic about things. A kangaroo or a Kook or a lunar from Perth... and a basic maple vs a 30th anniversary or privy one from RCM... they all cost the mints making them the same 1oz price and use the same process. Given same storage and humidity and etc, a 2010 kangaroo = 2010 kook = any other 2010 bullion 1oz coin from that same mint run. There is no "A", "B", and "C" buckets of silver rocks or buckets of rinse liquid for the different coins. Sorry.
The mints love if you believe the more expensive versions of silver coins (or jewelry) will age better, but they can all potentially develop toning, spotting, etc etc. You want to store them pretty well and do what you can to minimize the chances and severity of the metal aging process, but you have to realize that much of it is out of your control. That is the nature of the game.
Yep, of course. If it is made of silver, it can potentially develop spots... or toning... or green film... or etc etc tarnish. Bars are generally considered "ugly" since they are generally taken care of even worse than basic bullion or rounds. Again, it would probably be best if people all attend a coin show or two... fun time and good way to see many older coins.
It is silver, not gold. It can all potentially tarnish. If there was a way to prevent it, some mint would offer a money-back guarantee. However, you will never see that. That would be like a car dealer saying their car will never rust... assuming it has steel and aluminum, can't be done. You can pay $1000 for a 1oz coin if you want, but if it's silver, it will potentially tarnish just the same. Facts of life.
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barsenault
Well-Known Member
and some of those tarnished coins are going for millions...fact of life. I'm glad there is more than one way to skin this cat to enjoy this hobby. Because to me, merely stacking ounces is boring. I do it, but boooooor------ing. I'm one of those crazies who admire the art on metal, and it appears many thousands and thousands of other people do...otherwise, there wouldn't be a market for all the stuff that is produced all over the world.
take a look at this one. I know I've shown this example before...but buy price was like $220? And the others like it are doing well too. Now whether it continues to go up as some of the famous paintings out there, is anyone's guess. There are 500 of them, unlike 1 unique piece of art work...
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=ares+god+of+war+silver&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=29926&_sargn=-1&saslc=1&_salic=1&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=200&LH_Complete=1&_fosrp=1
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...ver+coin&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_stpos=29926
take a look at this one. I know I've shown this example before...but buy price was like $220? And the others like it are doing well too. Now whether it continues to go up as some of the famous paintings out there, is anyone's guess. There are 500 of them, unlike 1 unique piece of art work...
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=ares+god+of+war+silver&_in_kw=1&_ex_kw=&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_samilow=&_samihi=&_sadis=15&_stpos=29926&_sargn=-1&saslc=1&_salic=1&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=200&LH_Complete=1&_fosrp=1
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...ver+coin&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_stpos=29926
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You're not understanding the difference between tarnish and milky spots/stains, as they are two very different things. No one has ever complained about tarnish and you are correct tarnish happens on all silver. Milky spots/stains is not something that happens to all silver. Perth Mint never had a big issue with milky spots until the Kangaroo coins came out, so the only logical reason would be they have changed something in the production line to speed up the process. (which makes sense since they are a cheaper coin)
SlyGuy
Active Member
They are different forms of the same animal. Tarnish is any form of changes in the metal: dullness or loss of color, etc etc.
There are many forms of tarnish (milk spots being one), and silver tarnishes even under ideal conditions (temp controlled and vacuum sealed). If you guys like to blame the quality of the silver bullion on the silver mine the mints buy from or the type of distilled water they rinse coins with or whatever, that is failing to apply Occam's razor and recognize silver's inherent chemical nature. The tarnish is something that is inevitable. When silver comes into contact with air, oils of human skin, moisture, salt, etc etc... it does all kinds of funky things. But again, silver can do those things even on its own... even I purchased a silver coin brand new inside a graded MS70 slab with Donald Trump, Queen Eliza II, and Aussie prime minister signature on the grade label, lol.
...I have hundreds of maples, hundreds of brits, and twice that many ASE... as well as various other govt bullion from many years back. Some have spots, others are pristine. I am quite familiar with how coins wear since I buy the majority of mine from prior owners. It just cracks me up at coin shows when they have cases with display groups of "$18 Eagles" and "$20 Eagles" and "$24 Eagles" and "$30 Eagles." There are also goofballs selling Eagles with "beautiful rainbow toning" on eBay and at shows... and sometimes people even pay extra for the toning (which is sometimes later determined by grading services to be reaction to chemicals the owners put onto the coin face)! Regardless of the price or the coloration, the coins are all obviously the same damn thing: all are BU coins, none (should) have scratches or any real defects since they're uncirculated, and many probably even came from the same mint tubes. Some of them happened to develop certain types of spots or film or toning while others stayed more attractive and shiny. The older ones obviously tend to have more tarnish, even if well stored. It is the nature of the beast.
Correct. This is true for many antiques. A lot of things with some fading paint, cracking leather, rusting tacks or nails, etc are still tremendously valuable... if you find the right buyer.
I buy milk spot or toned coins all the time if they are the best value (usually as part of a mixed lot of coins or a volume discount). Of course I want the best looking ones I can get, but I'm mainly just after the silver and the high liquidity that comes from being recognized govt bullion. The coins with some tarnish often can be picked up exactly at spot price if buying in bulk from individuals, pawn shops, shows, etc. I sorta just expect nearly 100% of my coins, even the super shiny new ones bought in sealed tubes from bullion dealers, to develop some tarnish by the time I sell (despite my putting them in AirTites soon after buying). Again, tarnish is something that can, and probably will, happen whether I buy Somali silver or Canada silver... whether basic art or limited edition art on the coin. I just see a lot less potential for loss of value with the basic coins versus premium ones. With a bit of natural tarnishing over a few years, a coin you get for $1 over spot can basically only lose that $1, but a $5 premium coin can lose $5. It is a very simple decision for me.
Again, I think milk spot and toning and other tarnish on silver is obviously not optimal, but to cry foul and blame the mint is nuts. I like things like RCM MintShield or any Perth research where they are trying to cut down on it (as long as it is not just a scam to charge higher premiums). Still, they can never guarantee silver. It would be like a auto body shop trying to guarantee no rusting... or a dog breeder guaranteeing their dogs will never bite. They simply can't do that. The best they can do for silver is offer cleanings (as many watch and jewelry shops do) and just try to optimize their manufacture process. I'm happy with that.
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The words you write clearly indicate you are still not understanding the issue and your "Occam's razor" example is fundamentally flawed.
What's the more simple logical answer;
a) Perth Mint never had a wide spread issue with milky spots/stains in all the years they have been operating and then by some extreme coincidence they only started having issues in large numbers with the new low premium Kangaroo coins.
b) Perth Mint have cut corners in the production line for their new low premium Kangaroo coins that allows more contaminants to remain on the coins. These contaminants react with air over time and cause the so called milky spots.
Any rational person would say B is the most logical answer. To believe A you would have to drink a massive amount of kool-aid.
Also I've never seen milky spots on a cast bar which further indicates milk spots is not a normal reaction that happens with silver unlike the standard dark tarnishing.
So yes milk spots and tarnish are both reactions that happen on silver, but they are not the same thing. Standard dark Tarnish happens on all silver as it only requires the presence of air+time, where as milk spots only happens if some chemical is present on the coin during the production stage. Otherwise silver can go a million years without ever developing milk spots.
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Ian Gillman
Active Member
I read an x-ray fluoroscopy report on milk spots and it appears as if they are areas of Silver Chloride. They take a while to show up because the reaction occurs in the solid state and is very slow to occur. After a certain number of strikes the planchets are cleaned with Hydrochloric Acid and if the HCl is not washed off completely then some traces of chloride ions will be left on the planchet which will get transfered to the coin on the next strike. The problem can be solved by cleaning the planchets some other way but currently the quickest and cheapest method is the HCl method.
barsenault
Well-Known Member
Slyguy. You are a pure stacker, plain and simple. And folks who are just getting into this space should understand that there are several ways to invest into this space and make money. A pure stacker is beholden to the spot price of the precious metal. Thank goodness there are other ways to invest AND make money, AND there are millions of people who have, and will continue to dive head long into those other forms of investing into this space. And apparently it’s been quite a success for a long time....I suspect it will continue well into the future. I’m not saying the Lunars, Emu, Swans, Kooks, and Koalas don’t have issue with spotting...but it appears it is a lot less than Roos. Maybe they are a little more meticulous with your point B above. Not sure.
Actually, I only buy rolls of 20 or 5’s (2 oz) when I buy the stuff from the perth mint. Because when I go to sell, it will be by the roll, where I capture the premium, and I don’t have to worry about spots. And I only buy the semi-numi stuff from them: kooks, emu, lunars, swans, birds of paradise, etc...
I’m also happy that we live on a planet with billions of folks, with different interests and likes, because it’s these differences that make a market with collectibles and semi-numi pieces. You are stuck on the spot price. Those in the collectible (numismatic world) are not stuck on spot price, neither are those who invest in the semi-numi pieces like the kooks, lunars, and others. There are several ways to invest into this market, where one doesn’t have worry so much about spots or just collect bullion and watch the spot price stay stuck on 14 - 15 for years, and years....thank goodness.
Actually, I only buy rolls of 20 or 5’s (2 oz) when I buy the stuff from the perth mint. Because when I go to sell, it will be by the roll, where I capture the premium, and I don’t have to worry about spots. And I only buy the semi-numi stuff from them: kooks, emu, lunars, swans, birds of paradise, etc...
I’m also happy that we live on a planet with billions of folks, with different interests and likes, because it’s these differences that make a market with collectibles and semi-numi pieces. You are stuck on the spot price. Those in the collectible (numismatic world) are not stuck on spot price, neither are those who invest in the semi-numi pieces like the kooks, lunars, and others. There are several ways to invest into this market, where one doesn’t have worry so much about spots or just collect bullion and watch the spot price stay stuck on 14 - 15 for years, and years....thank goodness.
I took a high rez photo of my extra milky Kangaroo if anyone what's to have a look.
http://www.users.on.net/~leo25/IMG_0895.jpg
http://www.users.on.net/~leo25/IMG_0895.jpg
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Wow, I thought mine were badly spotted but not as severely as that
What’s your plans with them now, since the premium is gone? Would you hold them until melt price gets to what you paid for them, and then liquidate? I’m curious since I haven’t decided what I’ll do with my tubes of them.