Slabbed v Raw Proofs thoughts
- Thread starter Ag-man
- Start date
Some interesting thoughts in this thread
http://forums.silverstackers.com/to...medals-do-forum-members-send-for-grading.html
http://forums.silverstackers.com/to...medals-do-forum-members-send-for-grading.html
Don't own any and in my local coin club none of the other members have any interest in them either.
Generally most coin collecters can grade for themselves and third party graders are mainly for people who don't know much about coins but want to invest in them anyway.
I am just too cheap to pay for the service and don't trust the postal service not to lose my coins.
I totally agree with you there.
However some dealers now don't back themselves to grade and rely on someone else's opinion, (thus dumbing down the industry) and won't buy unless slabbed.
Generally most coin collecters can grade for themselves and third party graders are mainly for people who don't know much about coins but want to invest in them anyway.
I am just too cheap to pay for the service and don't trust the postal service not to lose my coins.
I totally agree with you there.
However some dealers now don't back themselves to grade and rely on someone else's opinion, (thus dumbing down the industry) and won't buy unless slabbed.
mmissinglink
Active Member
Grading, as far as I am aware, does take into account eye appeal to some degree.
Grading, while subjective to a large extent, isn't as ambiguous as some make it out to be. If it were completely ambiguous, it's likely that an uncirculated visually flawless coin fresh from the mint in a mint capsule could grade VF20 or a very worn coin grade MS69. But that just doesn't happen....so there isn't that much ambiguity, or at least not as much as some seem to think.
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Grading, while subjective to a large extent, isn't as ambiguous as some make it out to be. If it were completely ambiguous, it's likely that an uncirculated visually flawless coin fresh from the mint in a mint capsule could grade VF20 or a very worn coin grade MS69. But that just doesn't happen....so there isn't that much ambiguity, or at least not as much as some seem to think.
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A third party is more impartial to the grade than a dealer. You can argue with a dealer as to the grade of the coin, assuming that they are over-grading it to get more money. A slabbed coin has an unarguable grade from someone who has no interest in the price.
However of course people do argue the grade because it is subjective and the Third party does have an interest in the price, if they grade more strictly than another respectable company then they will lose trade, so it is in their interest to be lenient and give the benefit of the doubt.
When they can get a computer to scan the coin and give it a score out of 100 then I might actually get some done. I don't object to the coin being protected and I don't really object to the grading, I just don't want to pay money for something that is not going to make me my money back when I go to sell.
Do all MS 60 graded coins of the same type look exactly the same? they are to an investor but maybe not to a collector. Are MS 68 coins that bad, not to a collector maybe but investors are looking for MS 69+, most would not be able to tell the difference but they do not need to, someone else has already done it.
So in general I am not keen to spend a lot of money on a grade, I would rather spend it on more coins.
However of course people do argue the grade because it is subjective and the Third party does have an interest in the price, if they grade more strictly than another respectable company then they will lose trade, so it is in their interest to be lenient and give the benefit of the doubt.
When they can get a computer to scan the coin and give it a score out of 100 then I might actually get some done. I don't object to the coin being protected and I don't really object to the grading, I just don't want to pay money for something that is not going to make me my money back when I go to sell.
Do all MS 60 graded coins of the same type look exactly the same? they are to an investor but maybe not to a collector. Are MS 68 coins that bad, not to a collector maybe but investors are looking for MS 69+, most would not be able to tell the difference but they do not need to, someone else has already done it.
So in general I am not keen to spend a lot of money on a grade, I would rather spend it on more coins.
Ag-man said:
Even if not FDC, then still stunning coins!
Not sure how they are currently stored but you would want them protected against moisture and scuffs, which is going to cost a bit of cash anyway, how much extra would it cost to get them graded at the same time.
At the high end I can see some value in grading, if you have a perfect coin and not many are slabbed then you might make your money back on the cost of grading.
mmissinglink
Active Member
Jislizard said:
Actually, I have seen where lenient grading harms a TPG in the long run and stricter (some say harsh) grading standards benefits a TPG. Just think about all the TPG's (at least a dozen) that had been around and whose slabbed coins were easily found on places like eBay....they were notorious for being very lenient with their grades. The far more strict TPG's like NGC and PCGS benefited from their much more stricter grading because those other TPG's are not around anymore....I believe solely because of their lenient grading.
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A lot of companies were not third party, they were grading their own coins and putting them up on eBay.
Ebay clamped down and restricted slabbed coins to about four companies.
I think this has been the main reason why we don't see them so often.
Ebay clamped down and restricted slabbed coins to about four companies.
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/currstamps.html
I think this has been the main reason why we don't see them so often.
mmissinglink
Active Member
And yet, it seems most logical to me that the TPG company that is most blatantly lenient will still be harmed in the long run because sooner or later many collectors, I believe, will eschew such behavior/tactics.
I personally have an elite membership with NGC though I have purchased slabbed coins from NGC, PCGS, and ANACS. NGC does not appear to grade lenient from my experience. More often than not, but not always, I am slightly disappointed in the grades I receive. As just 1 example, I sent in 3 seemingly flawless 1964 silver medals and all graded MS68. A !964 minted medal may not be considered a "modern" numismatic product, but it's also not very old....MS68 seems a little harsh of a grade for these. I suppose I will keep an eye out to see if ever any of the same type of medal gets graded what will NGC or PCGS (if PCGS grades them at all) grade them. Come to think of it, I believe only NGC provides hi-rez photos online of almost everything they grade....PCGS doesn't do a good job at all of this.
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I personally have an elite membership with NGC though I have purchased slabbed coins from NGC, PCGS, and ANACS. NGC does not appear to grade lenient from my experience. More often than not, but not always, I am slightly disappointed in the grades I receive. As just 1 example, I sent in 3 seemingly flawless 1964 silver medals and all graded MS68. A !964 minted medal may not be considered a "modern" numismatic product, but it's also not very old....MS68 seems a little harsh of a grade for these. I suppose I will keep an eye out to see if ever any of the same type of medal gets graded what will NGC or PCGS (if PCGS grades them at all) grade them. Come to think of it, I believe only NGC provides hi-rez photos online of almost everything they grade....PCGS doesn't do a good job at all of this.
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I think that while there is any concern over the subjective nature of the grading there will always be cause for questioning the accuracy of the grade.
You also have the populations of coins which we know to be inaccurate because people pop the slabs and resubmit them in the hopes of getting a better grade.
At the moment there are too many issues for the service to be relied on.
I am sure I saw something about laser scanning a coin rather than just looking at it and keeping a photo. If they are going to start laser scanning for the grading then so much the better, if a coin gets resubmitted it will be recognised as such and won't get added to the population count (Is there a way of letting the companies know which coins have been removed from the slabs?)
It will come down to which company has the better service or cheaper options once the subjectivity is taken out of the grading.
You also have the populations of coins which we know to be inaccurate because people pop the slabs and resubmit them in the hopes of getting a better grade.
At the moment there are too many issues for the service to be relied on.
I am sure I saw something about laser scanning a coin rather than just looking at it and keeping a photo. If they are going to start laser scanning for the grading then so much the better, if a coin gets resubmitted it will be recognised as such and won't get added to the population count (Is there a way of letting the companies know which coins have been removed from the slabs?)
It will come down to which company has the better service or cheaper options once the subjectivity is taken out of the grading.
mmissinglink
Active Member
^ That coins are broken out of a slab and re-submitted of course doesn't ensure that a coin will grade higher....some do some don't, some get graded lower from what I recall seeing.
That re-slabbing previously slabbed coins is done can only mean that the TPG population figures are higher than the actual numbers of coins that exist slabbed.
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That re-slabbing previously slabbed coins is done can only mean that the TPG population figures are higher than the actual numbers of coins that exist slabbed.
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